Click Here to Return to Index<\/a><\/p>\n Here Begin The Postings<\/p>\n From: “Tim Morgan” Following on our discussion of The Number of the Beast and the World as Myth, the next Heinlein Readers Group meeting will be devoted to discussion of the book Time Enough For Love. One of Heinlein’s longest works, this book is the capstone of the Future History series. It revived the Lazarus Long character, yet it’s about a lot more than just his adventures. First, because it weaves together many other stories that LL is relating, sort of like the flashbacks on the TV show Lost: they’re related stories, tell us something about why the characters are the way they are now, but they’re also interested in their own right. But Heinlein used LL’s unique perspective on life to make observations about it (exactly what the Howards wanted from him: his wisdom). Topics that the book addresses include the significance and meaning of life, self-awareness, love, and relationships. *Does* age bring wisdom? LL is a litmus test. Did the Howards get what they wanted\/needed in saving him? As usual in Heinlein, there are many minor themes woven in as well, such as observations on the nature and business of government.<\/p>\n Heinlein combined many influences in creating this book. One is Vincent McHugh’s Caleb Catlum’s America—hugely popular when it was published in 1936, but now largely forgotten and hard to come by. To quote Bill Patterson: “There are some passages in the Archivist’s remarks that are almost taken verbatim from the author’s introduction to CCA — a redheaded (and polymorphous perverse as taught by his grandfather, does any of this ring bells) immortal who had led his families in a flight from persecution.” I hope that someone who has read Caleb Catlum’s America can join the discussion to fill us in on it.<\/p>\n Please join us, From: “JaneE!” Tim Morgan wrote: > Following on our discussion of The Number of the Beast and the World > Heinlein combined many influences in creating this book. One is > Please join us, Just bringing this up top for everyone to remind you that this Thursday is the day. See you there.<\/p>\n JaneE!<\/p>\n From: TheBookman Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 04:59:20 -0500 > Tim Morgan wrote: >> Following on our discussion of The Number of the Beast and the World >> Heinlein combined many influences in creating this book. One is >> Please join us, > Just bringing this up top for everyone to remind you that this And I _may_ even be able to infest this one. Someone keep an eye peeled, ’cause I’ll need an invite, I think.<\/p>\n Rtb<\/p>\n From: “David Wright Sr.” You have just entered room “heinleinreadersgroup.”<\/p>\n aggirlj has entered the room.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hi David<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Hi there. I was wondering if anyone was going to show.<\/p>\n Bookman99R has entered the room.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Good you made it. Click on File and Create shortcut and it will place a link to the room without having to have invite.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: That’s if you are not on a MAC.O:-)<\/p>\n Bookman99R: this version of AIM doesn’t have that option, that i can find<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Ok, the other alternative is to have your name in your buddy list and invite yourself to a chat and when it asks for the room type in ‘heinleinreadersgroup’<\/p>\n Bookman99R: AIM -= abortion of an instant messanger<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: What version are you using?<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hi Rusty<\/p>\n Bookman99R: 6.0.28.1<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hello, Ms. Silver<\/p>\n aggirlj: Tim should be around soon.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Jane<\/p>\n aggirlj: Thank you<\/p>\n extropiana@mac.com has entered the room.<\/p>\n aggirlj: I just invited Pam<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Welcome extro,……….. whoever.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ok, Jane. sorry<\/p>\n extropiana@mac.com: Hi! This is my first time ever in any chat, so please bear with me if I goof!<\/p>\n morganuci has entered the room.<\/p>\n aggirlj: It’s okay, love that you are gentlemanly<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, sorta<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hi Tim<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hi, tim<\/p>\n morganuci: Hi everyone!<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: No problemo. I’m David. aggirlj is Jane Silver and bookman99 is Rusty. morgani… is our moderator Time Morgan<\/p>\n aggirlj: I am almost finished with TEFL<\/p>\n extropiana@mac.com: I’m Shirley. (“Extro” is OK too.)<\/p>\n aggirlj: At the last part where he’s in Kansas City<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Shirley you can’t be serious \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n aggirlj: \ud83d\ude00<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Rusty you can download version 9.5.3 from our website. go to readers group and look for the link\\<\/p>\n Bookman99R: really? i must invite him over for coffee<\/p>\n Bookman99R: 9.5.3? yikes<\/p>\n georule1861 has entered the room.<\/p>\n IrishBet has entered the room.<\/p>\n georule1861: hello<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hey Geo. I’ve almost finished TEFL<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hi Pam<\/p>\n IrishBet: hi, all<\/p>\n georule1861: Is that your first time, JanE?<\/p>\n SedaGave has entered the room.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Yep. Really liking it.<\/p>\n aggirlj: He’<\/p>\n aggirlj: s<\/p>\n georule1861: There are days when it is my absolute favorite.<\/p>\n aggirlj: in KC right now with his Grandfather<\/p>\n georule1861: Well, that’s less favorite part there.<\/p>\n georule1861: Tho it has its moments.<\/p>\n aggirlj: little sad?<\/p>\n georule1861: Little kinky.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n aggirlj: Ohhhhhh<\/p>\n georule1861: Tho his grandpa the train guy?<\/p>\n georule1861: Really his first father in law.<\/p>\n georule1861: \/me wonders if he just gave away the store there.<\/p>\n georule1861: Well, I won’t say his first wife’s name.<\/p>\n georule1861: And I’<\/p>\n georule1861: And I’m convinced there’s a pretty well hidden Vietnam commentary in that section, btw.<\/p>\n aggirlj: we’re just before WWI<\/p>\n IrishBet: really, Geo? In what way?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: comments as to “pacifists”, for one thing<\/p>\n georule1861: Well, I think I’ll save it for the official convo.<\/p>\n georule1861: Not so much that.<\/p>\n georule1861: More duty.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: same thing, to me<\/p>\n georule1861: Remember, Lazarus KNEW that WWI was a humungous waste of time<\/p>\n georule1861: And went anyway.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Or just the first installment<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.<\/p>\n georule1861: No El Presidente tonight?<\/p>\n aggirlj: I’ll call him.<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Hello all,<\/p>\n georule1861: In the mean time, I’ll refresh ye old Scotch.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hi Nuke<\/p>\n IrishBet: Howdy, Nuke<\/p>\n georule1861: Anyone want to hear a tidbit from the archives I ran across last night?<\/p>\n SedaGave: Hi, Nuke<\/p>\n aggirlj: He’s gonna be on soon.<\/p>\n IrishBet: Sure, Geo.<\/p>\n aggirlj: ga<\/p>\n IrishBet: I love dirt<\/p>\n Bookman99R: sure, geo<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Hello! Not staying tonight, turning the computer over to my mother, who may or may not type.<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: All, Mum, Mum, all<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hi, mum<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hi Mum<\/p>\n IrishBet: Howdy, Mum. Welcome<\/p>\n SedaGave: Hi, Mum!<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Welcome Nuke’s Mum<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hey Seda, you snuck in.<\/p>\n SedaGave: I did, hehe<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: David’s online<\/p>\n georule1861: The whole “Trouble with Tribbles” thing with David Gerrold?<\/p>\n SedaGave: I have two versions of AIM, apparently…one wasn’t working, been fussing with the computer<\/p>\n IrishBet: Yea, Geo?<\/p>\n AGplusone has entered the room.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: pigs is pigs, right?<\/p>\n georule1861: Not nearly so cheerful in the letters that went back and forth at the time.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hi David<\/p>\n AGplusone: Hi, All. Nice turnout for early.<\/p>\n IrishBet: Oh, really? and Gerrold makes it sound so good-ole-boyish<\/p>\n IrishBet: Hi, David.<\/p>\n SedaGave: *waves*<\/p>\n georule1861: He does indeed.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Hi David the Younger<\/p>\n georule1861: But Ginny was seriously pissed about his attitude at times.<\/p>\n AGplusone: I got to reading that old 2000 log and forgot how good we used to be about pre-meeting postings.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Whose attitude, Geo?<\/p>\n georule1861: David Gerrold<\/p>\n AGplusone: Ah.<\/p>\n georule1861: Re “Trouble with Tribbles”<\/p>\n IrishBet: Janie, you know about the Star Trek episode?<\/p>\n aggirlj: Yah!<\/p>\n morganuci has left the room.<\/p>\n IrishBet: \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n aggirlj: But not the history<\/p>\n Bookman99R: trivia, bring me trivia!<\/p>\n IrishBet: It’s based directly on “flatcats” from RAH’s Rolling Stones.<\/p>\n georule1861: I was just telling a story out of school, David, waiting for the meeting to start.<\/p>\n AGplusone: stories out of school are fun<\/p>\n aggirlj: Yet to read that.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947 has entered the room.<\/p>\n IrishBet: “Flatcats”, ad flat bundles of fur that soothe humans and reproduce when they eat. Sound familiar?<\/p>\n IrishBet: Fltcats ARE<\/p>\n AGplusone: Flatcats are small Martian creatures that buzz comfortingly when you stroke them. If you feed them above a certain level, they reproduce, and reproduce, and reproduce … ad infinitum.<\/p>\n IrishBet: (stupid keyboard)<\/p>\n georule1861: Right now I have 3000 pages of 1972 I’m looking at.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: hi all<\/p>\n IrishBet: Howdy, Tox<\/p>\n georule1861: The amount of minutia involved in managing “Heinlein Inc” just is stunning.<\/p>\n SedaGave: sounds pretty tribblish to me \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n georule1861: Ginny deserved multiple medals for dealing with all that.<\/p>\n IrishBet: \ud83d\ude00<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: lol<\/p>\n aggirlj: Puts me in mind of Woody Allen Sleeper when he’s incognito as the robot and the ball<\/p>\n AGplusone: Castor and Pollux, the twins, in Rolling Stones, get one, It reproduces like crazy. They have to freeze the ship to stop the population explosion. Just like the Tribbles.<\/p>\n georule1861: Page after page of “Polish edition of Citizen of the Galaxy” and “Holland edition of Stranger in a Strange Land” etc<\/p>\n aggirlj: or the sphere<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: The Atlanta Radio Theater is giving performances of All You Zombies on the 28 & 29th of april. They asked permission to use my timeline as a handout.<\/p>\n jilyd has entered the room.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hi, dee<\/p>\n IrishBet: DavidW, how great!<\/p>\n jilyd: Good evening all.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hi Dee.<\/p>\n georule1861: In fact, some of it was TEFL related.<\/p>\n jilyd: Good to see everybody. I have been away too long.<\/p>\n georule1861: Tho mostly just progress reports from Ginny to Lurton.<\/p>\n aggirlj: BTW, has anyone else seen the Enterprise commercial where the licence plate is RAH 730 and made the connection.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: My wife and I are going and just possibly might meet with Amy Baxter and her husband if they can make it.<\/p>\n aggirlj: license<\/p>\n georule1861: If you see Amy and Louis please give them Deb and my love.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: They live in Atlanta now.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Well, Tim back, yet?<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: I will do so Geo.. BTW, do you pronounce that ‘JO’ or “GEE-O’?O:-)<\/p>\n aggirlj: No, I invited him though.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: anyone here have a problem with reading typosylvanian?<\/p>\n georule1861: G. O. works for pronunciation.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: That’s bugged me for years. Thanks.<\/p>\n Ron0859 has entered the room.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Tim’s offline now.<\/p>\n morganuci has entered the room.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hey, wb<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: AFK<\/p>\n Ron0859: Greetings all! don’t stop talking on my account<\/p>\n aggirlj: We haven’t started yet.<\/p>\n AGplusone: wb, Tim. Ready for you to start.<\/p>\n georule1861: jilyd?<\/p>\n georule1861: DEE?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Shhh! Ron’s here, stop tllking<\/p>\n georule1861: IS THAT YOU?!<\/p>\n aggirlj: k’rect<\/p>\n Ron0859: then good timing on my part<\/p>\n jilyd: Yess, Dee, Geo. Or Dee2, as you and Deb know me.<\/p>\n morganuci: OK, here’s a kick-off question: What’s the meaning of the pawn shop song, and how\/why is it a key to understanding Lazarus?<\/p>\n georule1861: Hotdog!<\/p>\n aggirlj: I’m all ears.<\/p>\n georule1861: Well.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: it’s a modification of “the born loser”, for one thing<\/p>\n Bookman99R: suitably bowdlerized<\/p>\n georule1861: It speaks to both the repression of his early days and the fact that he’s overcome it<\/p>\n georule1861: Sexual repression tha tis.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: possibly that he sees himself as a “born loser”?<\/p>\n morganuci: Does he see himself that way?<\/p>\n georule1861: I don’t believe that.<\/p>\n aggirlj: I am not sure of that.<\/p>\n SedaGave: I don’t think so<\/p>\n AGplusone: ‘born loser’ or ‘artful dodger’?<\/p>\n aggirlj: That more likely<\/p>\n georule1861: Now there you go.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: more indifferent to amassing property I think<\/p>\n Bookman99R: or identifies with him, anyway<\/p>\n SedaGave: He’s quite self-reliant and looks for that quality in others<\/p>\n AGplusone: The song used to amuse my dad. He had it on an old 78, and used to sing versions and other verses of it.<\/p>\n morganuci: It was “Pittsburg, Pennsylvania”, right?<\/p>\n AGplusone: It was a song I felt rung of memories of the Depression to him.<\/p>\n georule1861: It’s interesting how much bawdy music plays a role in TEFL.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Yeah, the version on the 78<\/p>\n georule1861: That’s just the start<\/p>\n georule1861: Its importance is laced thru the book<\/p>\n AGplusone: I think the Johnnie Mercer rendition<\/p>\n georule1861: In fact, I make a point of finding the lyrics to most of those.<\/p>\n morganuci: Where else does it come up?<\/p>\n georule1861: Tho some I knew before.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Might it be some kind of charkra?<\/p>\n georule1861: Who was that for, Tim?<\/p>\n SedaGave: Early, when he’s beeing rejuvenated and starting to feel better, he starts humming it<\/p>\n Bookman99R: didn’t see lyrics for it via google<\/p>\n morganuci: Anyone. I meant, where else does bawdy music play a role in the book?<\/p>\n georule1861: Are you kidding?<\/p>\n georule1861: The Dora story.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Lil<\/p>\n georule1861: Barnacle Bill the Sailor<\/p>\n Bookman99R: bawdy songs wee The Dora’s “nursery rhymes”<\/p>\n georule1861: Both Doras<\/p>\n morganuci: OK. Why?<\/p>\n aggirlj: There’s quite a bawdy one a friend used to sing full voice about Lil and that is a reference I believe as well.<\/p>\n SedaGave: It means he’s feeling well, the board’s green, he says<\/p>\n georule1861: He’s trying to shock too. Of course he is.<\/p>\n georule1861: Words are words.<\/p>\n georule1861: Sex is natural.<\/p>\n georule1861: Get the hell over it already<\/p>\n morganuci: How do you shock a computer?<\/p>\n georule1861: Well, you don’t. But the author knows its not just the computer.<\/p>\n IrishBet: She was sentient, Tim. That implies feelings<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: agreed<\/p>\n Bookman99R: OTOH, if sex is ‘natural’, nothing tabooo, then don’t bawdies lose their power?<\/p>\n georule1861: This is part of the value of For Us, The Living.<\/p>\n morganuci: I agree about the feelings (once we presuppose sentient computers), but that doesn’t make them shockable. Shock depends on being brought up with human mores and human feelings.<\/p>\n georule1861: And the ’41 speech.<\/p>\n georule1861: And Stranger.<\/p>\n georule1861: It’s all one piece.<\/p>\n AGplusone: “hocking your overcoat” meant divesting … how does that fit?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: not divesting, though, is it?<\/p>\n morganuci: If it’s a depression era song, doesn’t it refer to having to sell your stuff to get by?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: sicne the coat is “always in hock”, it means that he’s in constant need of small loans<\/p>\n AGplusone: well, you can always put the ticket away and redeem it up to a certain time<\/p>\n AGplusone: for a fee<\/p>\n Bookman99R: exactly<\/p>\n aggirlj: Rent it?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: where divesting is selling off, IIRC<\/p>\n AGplusone: but overcoats are things you really don’t have to have, if you keep moving when it’s cold<\/p>\n AGplusone: And the good deals you buy in a pawn shop are unredeemed merchandise<\/p>\n georule1861: Yes, there is an element of “wild geese” to that song too<\/p>\n georule1861: Which is also a huge theme in the novel<\/p>\n AGplusone: that neither the broker nor the owner expects to see redeemed<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Sam Roberts\/Richards pawned his overcoat in Starman Jones.<\/p>\n OceanSprite31 has entered the room.<\/p>\n AGplusone: yep, just as he tried to pawn Max’s uncle’s manuals<\/p>\n morganuci: Go on about the wild geese them, Geo.<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: Hello all<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hi<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hi<\/p>\n morganuci: Hey<\/p>\n georule1861: Well, “moving on”<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: he tried to sell the manuals back to the guild – or get a “finders fee”<\/p>\n SedaGave: Hi, Ocean<\/p>\n georule1861: What David said about not needing the overcoat<\/p>\n morganuci: Yes, definitely moving on.<\/p>\n georule1861: “don’t argue with the weather”<\/p>\n AGplusone: yes, effectively the same thing, ToxDoc …<\/p>\n georule1861: You do what you need to do when you need to do it, with a minimum of regret.<\/p>\n georule1861: Because when necessity calls the tune, there is no need to apologize for anything to anyone.<\/p>\n georule1861: It is what it is.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: must be my “detail” node acting up<\/p>\n AGplusone: David Lamb, for example, does a minimum to achieve his ends, and never expects to pay or receive full value, too.<\/p>\n morganuci: Well, since you brought up David Lamb, and that was one of my topic areas…<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: How does Lamb’s experiences tie-in with ‘wild geese’. Seemed to me as if he wanted exactly the opposite.<\/p>\n georule1861: David didn’t want to be on the south end of that north bound mule.<\/p>\n aggirlj: We’re on the other book, right?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Lamb doesn’t “do the minimum”, precisely – rather, he develops the easiest way to manage it<\/p>\n georule1861: That was David’s necessity.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Lamb might be viewed as a mercenary … no commitment, just do the minimum to get by easily.<\/p>\n IrishBet: Janie, “the man too lazy to fail”<\/p>\n aggirlj: nevermind<\/p>\n morganuci: Back in 2000, David S, you said that you didn’t get the secret marriage part of the story. What do you think about it today?<\/p>\n georule1861: You could make a case for David Lamb as Zebadiah –either Zebadiah– that didn’t have his crisis.<\/p>\n AGplusone: “get”?<\/p>\n AGplusone: Thought it was a clever evasion in 2000. Still do. Not honorable, unless you look at the Draconian consequences.<\/p>\n morganuci: The context then was about honor, midshipmen weren’t supposed to lie, they were supposed to turn in people who violated the honor code, etc.<\/p>\n morganuci: And Ginny’s explanation was that it was really about another midshipman, but with some autobiographical elements.<\/p>\n morganuci: Do we still believe that, or is it pretty much autobiographical? And if so<\/p>\n georule1861: That seems correct.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: so, Lamb was pragmatic enough to simulate honor<\/p>\n morganuci: what’s RAH saying about himself?<\/p>\n AGplusone: Yes, the “Lamb” prototype was one of the two Delos named members of his class. Big secret everyone covered up until years later, after he retired.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: that the rules & indoctrination that were a part of himself were essentially silly, when viewed objectively?<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: He was a ‘rational anarchist’ \ud83d\ude0e<\/p>\n Bookman99R: there’s backstory on that which i don’t have<\/p>\n AGplusone: Except there’s the point he made in his letter to Campbell, that the honor system was intended to become a substitute for the profit motive in USNA grads.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, it seems clear that the indoctrination “took”, in RAH’s case<\/p>\n georule1861: Heinlein was about concepts not rules. Natural law, as he defined it.<\/p>\n morganuci: Does LL, when telling about David Lamb, approve or disapprove of Lamb? Which are we, the readers, supposed to do? Is Lamb a beloved wolf in sheep’s clothing?<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: make points in honor rather than dollars in profit?<\/p>\n georule1861: He’s not a wolf in sheeps clothing.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Backstory, briefly, there was a member of the class of ’29 who did get a girl pregnant, and with collusion of father concealed it, they got married after graduation, went to England, and came back for a child “adopted” over there.<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: I believe we were left very much to draw our own conclusions<\/p>\n georule1861: He’s a guy who didn’t have his crisis.<\/p>\n georule1861: Didn’t have to make a huge choice at some point.<\/p>\n georule1861: Was able to keep gaming the system successfully.<\/p>\n georule1861: He was never pushed to his full potential.<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: I read the tale with a very ‘neutral’ voice from LL concenring the tale<\/p>\n georule1861: But that doesn’t make him a bad guy.<\/p>\n georule1861: If he’s more talented than everyone around him.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the “too lazy to fail” story is clearly a parable, the basic message being that working hard, in and of itself, is no virtue<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: I can agree there, Rusty<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ty, David<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: and Geo<\/p>\n AGplusone: maybe not, but it doesn’t make him a guy you’d go on combat patrol willingly with either, does it?<\/p>\n georule1861: I think its another example of subverting traditional morals.<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: hmm<\/p>\n Bookman99R: depends<\/p>\n georule1861: That the “Protestant work ethic” is horsefeathers objectively.<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: I dunno….give me a Guy like Lamb, who thinks his skin is precious, and we might come back better<\/p>\n AGplusone: Yes, but “depends” isn’t what you want to have to choose from, Rusty.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: I’d go on patrol with him – he has his priorities right<\/p>\n AGplusone: Fly with him on your wing, eh?<\/p>\n morganuci: Would he pick saving himself over saving his platoon?<\/p>\n georule1861: Tho at some level I don’t agree.<\/p>\n georule1861: At some level I want to force someone with that much talent to their potential.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: so long as I knew what he was about, i believe I could tolerate it<\/p>\n aggirlj: Okay, it’s all coming back to me. This is what I aspire to. However, haven’t quite found it or how to do it.<\/p>\n georule1861: And so does RAH in some other books\/stories.<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: saving self over platoon might lead to more work than needed to keep cozy life<\/p>\n AGplusone: I’d put him on point and keep him there where I could watch him.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947 has left the room.<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: Good idea David<\/p>\n AGplusone: For a long time …<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: but you make that genius work for you that way<\/p>\n Bookman99R: not to mention that Lamb would work _hard_ at protecting his own precious skin – which means keeping as many others around him alive<\/p>\n AGplusone: Then maybe I’d let him walk slack.<\/p>\n morganuci: Is Lamb honorable when it counts, but lets it slide where it doesn’t really matter? Or just always out for #1?<\/p>\n georule1861: One wonders how much unmotivated genius is in the world.<\/p>\n AGplusone: slack = guy right behind the point<\/p>\n georule1861: I don’t think we know, Tim.<\/p>\n georule1861: That’s part of the problem with David Lamb.<\/p>\n OceanSprite31: Thans for explaining, David…had forgotten that term<\/p>\n Bookman99R: agreed, geo<\/p>\n jilyd: Lamb seems very trutworthy to me in one way.<\/p>\n georule1861: He never had to look “oh sh*t, what now?” in th eye.<\/p>\n morganuci: What’s the point of a parable if it doesn’t teach us a message?<\/p>\n jilyd: You can expect consistent rational self-interest out of him.<\/p>\n AGplusone: makes us think?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: not to mention that we are not discussing Lamb himself, but rather, Lamb as LL tells about him<\/p>\n georule1861: Well, there’s an interesting point.<\/p>\n georule1861: Presumably the real Lamb had his own rationalizations.<\/p>\n morganuci: Yes, that’s true—this is LL’s view. Would he have liked to be in Lamb’s position? I think he always wanted to keep moving, to see how far the tree would hold out?<\/p>\n AGplusone: Exactly. There was a decoration Lamb was awarded, maybe a DFC, but we don’t know for what.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: depends on what you mean by “oh, shit”, geo<\/p>\n AGplusone: That’s why Lamb made Admiral when he retired ahead of his class.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: do you mean a Kobyashi Maru moment?<\/p>\n SedaGave: lol<\/p>\n jilyd: Lamb (as Lazarus tell him, thanks rusty) is another verion of the Starship troopers story about the apple pie.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Something like that.<\/p>\n georule1861: What I mean by oh shit is the kind of crisis that Zebadiah had to face in “–If This Goes On” where he’s standing over the body of a snitch next to his best friend and his lover.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: LL implied that DL kept his head in a crisis<\/p>\n georule1861: That kind of “oh shit”<\/p>\n AGplusone: That Zebbie. Okay, I understand you know, Geo.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: been too long since I’ve read that<\/p>\n AGplusone: now, not “know”<\/p>\n Bookman99R: effort vs results, right Dee?<\/p>\n jilyd: Yes.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Zeb in ITGO is a lot like David Lamb. Least resistence kinda guy. Like Smitty, going along, to “keep an eye on his investment” in Red Planet.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and our society is loaded with praise for effort, irrespective of results<\/p>\n aggirlj: I think that most people who would like to find the road of least reisistence are disciplined to a great degree.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Contrast them with John Ezra Dalrymple, who got to be a hero because he didn’t think things through in advance.<\/p>\n AGplusone: And also got to be dead and radioactive.<\/p>\n jilyd: well lots of effort leaidng to poor results is a normal part of the early stages of the learning process, but in the end, the effort alone does not cretge value.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Clever at least in finding that road and being low key.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but effort, in and of itself, is in no way sacred<\/p>\n jilyd: Jane, my granddady used to say that i you want to findthe easy way to do something you give it to a lazy man to do.<\/p>\n morganuci: Clearly, Lamb didn’t want to be radioactive! And didn’t particular want to be a hero (not clear if John Ezra did, or just fell into it).<\/p>\n AGplusone: Does anyone know where “shines the name” comes from?<\/p>\n jilyd: Obviously implicit inthat was an intelligent lazy man with a reason to actually complete the task.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: remember, DL was dedicated to being lazy – he worked _hard_ at it<\/p>\n aggirlj: I always find the easy way if I can. I am lazy too.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947 has entered the room.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: aswide from the Roger Young song, david?<\/p>\n SedaGave: Yes, Rodger Young ballad<\/p>\n AGplusone: Yes, aside from that and Starship Troopers.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: dunno<\/p>\n AGplusone: Bancroft Hall, at the Naval Academy. The names on copper plaques. Kept shinning. All the KIAs or others who died on duty.<\/p>\n jilyd: Yes, isn’t it form the actual WWII -era “Ballad of Roger Young”? Or am I completely misremembering?<\/p>\n AGplusone: You see them every day, coming and going into classes. Every time you pass.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947 has left the room.<\/p>\n morganuci: New topic?<\/p>\n OceanSprite31 has left the room.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Never been there. Found this out from writings of another Naval Academy grad. The one just elected Senator from Virginia. James Webb.<\/p>\n georule1861: Can we have a minor digression?<\/p>\n morganuci: Sure!<\/p>\n georule1861: I’d like to know if Webb gets points for having his aid carrying his gun?<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: But Rodger Young was in the Army. Would the writer of the ballad used a Navy source?<\/p>\n georule1861: Or loses points for having HIS AIDE carry the gun?<\/p>\n georule1861: From Heinleiners, that is.<\/p>\n AGplusone: confluence I suspect David<\/p>\n morganuci: Loses \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n Bookman99R: push<\/p>\n georule1861: I mean, I can lay my hand on a loaded (Tho not chambered) gun without getting out of this chair!<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Yeah, I would suspect all the services had their ‘shining names’ memorials<\/p>\n AGplusone: Gains, so the next time W makes an inappropriate comment he doesn’t just pull it out and shoot W<\/p>\n georule1861: Heh.<\/p>\n georule1861: That’s a point.<\/p>\n georule1861: Sort of like counting backwards from 100.<\/p>\n AGplusone: that’s the thought<\/p>\n Bookman99R: does the aide carry it as a regular thing?<\/p>\n georule1861: If you have to ask the aide for your gun you might calm down enough to not use it.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947 has entered the room.<\/p>\n georule1861: Okay, end of digression. Carry on, McDuff.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: LL would probably say loses, thugh<\/p>\n AGplusone: LL might use his knife, not vibroblade, but messy<\/p>\n SedaGave: LL would have several weapons they wouldn’t find<\/p>\n Bookman99R: exactly<\/p>\n georule1861: LL wouldn’t kill him and then feel superior knowing that he could have.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Next question, Tim?<\/p>\n morganuci: “Sheffield had decided, centuries back, that the saddest thing about ephemerals was that their little lives rarely held time enough for love.”<\/p>\n morganuci: Does the title mean that we don’t live long enough to experience the kind of relationship LL had with Dora?<\/p>\n georule1861: Yes.<\/p>\n georule1861: You want the longer answer?<\/p>\n aggirlj: ga<\/p>\n morganuci: If you’ve got one \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: I disagree,because I think Dora had that kind of relationship with him.<\/p>\n georule1861: Well, more days than not, I’ll nominate –with Ginny, btw– “The Tale of the Adopted Daughter” as my very favorite Heinlein.<\/p>\n georule1861: Because both of them gave their all.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: true, but was that because she was raised by two older people who could teach her about love, instead of conflicting social norms?<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: And what counted was the ‘eternal now’<\/p>\n georule1861: I don’t know that if I was Lazarus I could have resisted the temptation.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Hard to be detached when you’re on the same track. Dying of old age too. They both may have been, but Dora knew all along he’d outlive her. Some of that may have influenced her attitude of acceptance.<\/p>\n georule1861: To take her to to Secundus against her will and extend her life.<\/p>\n georule1861: And what does THAT mean about how he felt about the terrible trick pulled on him><\/p>\n georule1861: ?<\/p>\n GreedyCapitalist has entered the room.<\/p>\n AGplusone: As he promised to do with Maureen before he took the round in the trenches.<\/p>\n morganuci: Good point about Dora. But in the ~1100 years since, LL hadn’t experienced the same thing again, presumably leading to his loss of interest in living.<\/p>\n georule1861: And I think that was part of Dora’s thinking.<\/p>\n georule1861: I think she wanted to be his great love.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: how much of the root question involves weeding out false values for ‘love’?<\/p>\n georule1861: And saw that as the way to do it.<\/p>\n AGplusone: “Greedy Capitalist”? — from the People Republic of Massachuetts?<\/p>\n morganuci: Are there parallels to RAH’s life? The 3rd marriage was the love-of-his-life one.<\/p>\n AGplusone: or at least the “charm” Tim<\/p>\n georule1861: Is there evidence that Dora was LL’s third?<\/p>\n georule1861: Or what are you saying?<\/p>\n AGplusone: I think he’s referring to Ginny<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ll+Dora = RAH+VH?<\/p>\n morganuci: I didn’t mean it that literally, sorry I wasn’t clear. I just meant, you go through some number of relationships before you find the big one.<\/p>\n morganuci: which happened to be 3 in RAH’s case, and some number (probably >> 3) for LL.<\/p>\n georule1861: Oh.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: it’s a good question, though<\/p>\n georule1861: I’m a little misty on this subject right now.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Gawd, you too.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: how many people really find “perfect love”?<\/p>\n morganuci: Exactly! If we had thousands of years, we’d have a better shot at it.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Elinor was a first mistake–she didn’t want to be married on second thought, I suppose. LesLyn got sick. Ginny lasted<\/p>\n georule1861: Two nights ago I read Ginny’s letters to her dead husband 4 weeks and 8 weeks after he passed.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: LL & Dora, RAH & Ginny<\/p>\n georule1861: He loved Leslyn. Ginny knew it.<\/p>\n AGplusone: And he probably loved Elinore at the time of marriage until she made it plain she was dumping him<\/p>\n Bookman99R: you’re on turf where I can’t discuss, Geo<\/p>\n georule1861: “Time Enough for Love” is about the fact that love is not a zero sum game.<\/p>\n morganuci: GA<\/p>\n georule1861: Well, it just isn’t. If you have the time you can have infinite loves.<\/p>\n AGplusone: [Geo: Bill mentioned Elinore Curry by name in a post recently on AFH]<\/p>\n georule1861: I do wonder how Ginny might have felt about that. I don’t think she would have totally agreed.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: how much of RAH’s first 2 marriages is available to the general public?<\/p>\n georule1861: She identified much more with Dora, clearly.<\/p>\n aggirlj: What’s that saying about loving the one you’re with?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Stephen Stills<\/p>\n georule1861: That’s not saying you can’t, or there’s anything wrong with it.<\/p>\n georule1861: Tho if you’re “settling” that’s not necessarily a good thing.<\/p>\n georule1861: In the “the girls all get prettier at closing time” sense.<\/p>\n Ron0859: “practice makes perfect”?<\/p>\n georule1861: Oh, Bill did?<\/p>\n georule1861: Okay.<\/p>\n georule1861: Deb and I found Elinore’s entry on the 1930 census.<\/p>\n AGplusone: yeah, I wouldn’t have used her name otherwise.<\/p>\n georule1861: Her Dad was a train main.<\/p>\n morganuci: Man?<\/p>\n georule1861: And her grandfather was a Big Man in Kansas.<\/p>\n georule1861: Okay. “Trainman” then<\/p>\n georule1861: She’s on the 1930 census as “Elinore Heinlein”<\/p>\n georule1861: But she was living with her parents.<\/p>\n AGplusone: LNC found the court records of the divorce for Bill.<\/p>\n AGplusone: We all try to help Bill finish that biography!<\/p>\n georule1861: Heh.<\/p>\n georule1861: Yes, we do.<\/p>\n morganuci: Maybe the title means that you’re unlikely to find that kind of love, so you should count yourself lucky if you do.<\/p>\n georule1861: No, it doesn’t.<\/p>\n georule1861: Don’t make me come over there!<\/p>\n georule1861: j\/k<\/p>\n morganuci: OK, more about Dora. Would LL have felt differently about her had she been a Howard?<\/p>\n aggirlj: Nope<\/p>\n georule1861: No, but that’s the amazing thing.<\/p>\n georule1861: He’d been canalized for a long time to only make babies with Howards.<\/p>\n AGplusone: “differently” how?<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: probably more distant – howards didn’t seem to be all that close<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: over the long haul anyway<\/p>\n georule1861: I don’t know that we really understand how much LL went against his “programming” to make a bunch of babies with a non-Howard.<\/p>\n georule1861: That wasn’t a lightly taken decision.<\/p>\n morganuci: Maybe she’d have just been another marriage, not THE marriage. Howards go into it knowing they’re going to divorce eventually.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Note how Maureen feels about Stong and t’other guy, the fellow who liked to rent motels whose motel she was on the way when she fell in front of the 18-wheeler.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I think that you are overstating the caswe some, Geo<\/p>\n georule1861: I’m listening!<\/p>\n georule1861: and sharpening the knife, but go ahead!<\/p>\n georule1861: \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the only real motivator I recall seeing applied to LL was “not a Howard, no money”<\/p>\n aggirlj: Yabbut, he never worried that much about money.<\/p>\n AGplusone: And he certainly didn’t need money when he married Dora, did he?<\/p>\n georule1861: Maybe in 1930’s.<\/p>\n georule1861: Later he knew better.<\/p>\n SedaGave: LL explains that he did enter it as a little-cost-to-himself proposition…what’s 60 years, to him? But he felt differently, later, he fell more deeply in love than he ever had, I’d say<\/p>\n AGplusone: Hocking the overcoat again?<\/p>\n georule1861: I think it would be hard to argue that by the time he married Dora he didn’t have a pretty good idea of what he was and what it meant.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: if it were the kind of indoctrination you are alluding to, it would have been more overt, and less discussed<\/p>\n Bookman99R: true, Geo – but then he got Will Roger’ed<\/p>\n AGplusone: Woody was always ready to head back to Mars or Venus, or “down Mexico way”<\/p>\n Bookman99R: “it sin’t what you don’t know that gets ya, it’s what you do know, that just ain’t so!”<\/p>\n georule1861: Maybe he would have given her one because he wanted to mak her happy.<\/p>\n georule1861: The evidence is he gave her a passle.<\/p>\n AGplusone: except when he got trapped by Love, for Dora, for the Howard Family, for Maureen.<\/p>\n georule1861: Because it made him happy.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: that may be the key to the song<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: ahhh – he’d had a recent rejuvenation<\/p>\n Bookman99R: everything, to LL, was fleeting<\/p>\n AGplusone: What’s the quote in the edited version of Stranger, definition of “love”?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: friends, family, nations<\/p>\n AGplusone: “Love is when their happiness is more important than your own” or some such?<\/p>\n morganuci: That’s right<\/p>\n georule1861: It’s in TEFL too.<\/p>\n georule1861: More or less.<\/p>\n georule1861: First 1\/3<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Long, at the time of TEFL, had no particular purpose in life<\/p>\n aggirlj: Bred<\/p>\n aggirlj: Bored, I mean<\/p>\n georule1861: Well.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: beyond bored<\/p>\n AGplusone: That’s why he became an “art critic” … nothin’ else to do.<\/p>\n georule1861: If I were to point at the importance of the Dora story.<\/p>\n georule1861: I’d say it lies in the phrase “that’s when I stopped wanting to live forever”<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Dora gave him a purpose, a Purpose in life<\/p>\n SedaGave: *nods*<\/p>\n morganuci: Right! And so not finding another such relationship in 1100 years was making him give up on life.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: when Dora died, he was bereft of Purose<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: he was celibate for a century or so I seem to remember<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: something about “friction of two membranes rubbibg”<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and had to spend his time on filler purposes<\/p>\n AGplusone: What was his purpose? Write a fiction for Dora in which she has a happier life?<\/p>\n aggirlj: What happier, I think she was very happy.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Only because he became “Bill” and went with her to Happy Valley.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Note that the ultimate cure for his listlessness was his Tertius family<\/p>\n jilyd: Me, too, Jane. Seems maybe the long-lifer has the harder role in such a mismatched union.<\/p>\n AGplusone: And bring his not-so-virgin mother to her rightful place of Assumption in Heaven.<\/p>\n JJ Brannon has entered the room.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Hi JJ<\/p>\n IrishBet: {{JJ}}<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: ‘Allo! ‘Allo!<\/p>\n morganuci: Hi JJ!<\/p>\n aggirlj: {PBS had a very funny show by that title}<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: I’d be late to my own funeral, I would.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Saving her from the Church of the Great Inseminator …<\/p>\n Bookman99R:<\/p>\n AGplusone: as well.<\/p>\n jilyd: My husband says if I am ontime to mine, better check the box.<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: [As I should after all this practice…]<\/p>\n morganuci: Was Dora a “Chinese obligation”? At what point does it change?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: fair odds that I’ll miss my funeral<\/p>\n SedaGave: Initially, I’d say<\/p>\n georule1861: She started that way.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Define, please Tim.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I don’t think that there’s a point where it changes, Tim<\/p>\n Bookman99R: more a gradual thing<\/p>\n SedaGave: Like a stray cat<\/p>\n aggirlj: Because he saved her life?<\/p>\n morganuci: A Chinese obligation is supposedly that if you save someone’s life, then you’re responsible for them thereafter.<\/p>\n SedaGave: ahh<\/p>\n georule1861: If my wife stepped in front of a truck tomorrow I’d stay here for the cats, and pretty much thats it.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: didn’t LL say that _Dora_ tought _him_ how to love?<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: Didn’t Hilda Corners-Burroughs-Long describe Lazarus wanting to be a guest at his own?<\/p>\n AGplusone: Well, in that case, Geo, don’t let her keep any dates with a guy in a motel. \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n georule1861: Heh.<\/p>\n georule1861: He’d step in front of the truck, David.<\/p>\n georule1861: That’s what the police report would say.<\/p>\n IrishBet: When I die, I’m sure I’ll have a big funeral<\/p>\n jilyd: I think she referred to his need for center stage as a desire to be the bride at every weddign and the corpse at every funeral.<\/p>\n georule1861: And I’d have multiple witnesses I was in public somewhere else far away.<\/p>\n IrishBet: Curiosity seekers coming to see if<\/p>\n georule1861: \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n IrishBet: I am really dead or just trying<\/p>\n IrishBet: to make trouble<\/p>\n aggirlj: {ba dumb dumb!}<\/p>\n IrishBet: ee cummings<\/p>\n AGplusone: Wasn’t it Rufo who wanted to give the oration at his own at the end of the funeral?<\/p>\n aggirlj: {that was the burlesque drummer}<\/p>\n Bookman99R: no, he sang<\/p>\n georule1861: I wan’t to be executor so I can give away my second best bed.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: an aria, or something<\/p>\n SedaGave: lol<\/p>\n morganuci: I guess what I meant was, at the time they got married, he implies that he saw it as a small time commitment (from his perspective), implying he wasn’t doing it out of wild love at that time.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: see my comment above, Tim<\/p>\n georule1861: Well.<\/p>\n georule1861: He loved her by one definiton.<\/p>\n aggirlj: He was possibly doing for the fun of it!<\/p>\n georule1861: Which is “More concerned for her happiness than his.”<\/p>\n Bookman99R: he said that Dora taught him how to love<\/p>\n georule1861: But I think he didn’t really expect that his happiness was going to suffer much.<\/p>\n georule1861: The cost was low, and Dora was a fun dish.<\/p>\n morganuci: which implies he didn’t know how to love when they married.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: by his assessment at the end, yes.<\/p>\n SedaGave: Yes, she seemed to teach him more than anyone<\/p>\n georule1861: I don’t think we should think of even the beginning of that relationship as LL wasn’t getting his rocks off\/needs satisfeid.<\/p>\n georule1861: I think he was.<\/p>\n jilyd has left the room.<\/p>\n georule1861: The amazing thing to him was how much it grew from there.<\/p>\n georule1861: This was not a man without experience.<\/p>\n georule1861: He’d been thru the early years of a lustful\/happy marriage before.<\/p>\n georule1861: Several times.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yes, but love is not an easy concept<\/p>\n jilyd has entered the room.<\/p>\n aggirlj: wb<\/p>\n Bookman99R: wb, Dee<\/p>\n georule1861: Isn’t it?<\/p>\n jilyd: Thanks Jane.<\/p>\n georule1861: What’s not so easy about it is how to get it to last.<\/p>\n IrishBet: Not to a cynic, Geo<\/p>\n IrishBet: He was pretty cynical by then<\/p>\n SedaGave: The memory of Dora still tended to make him momentarily morbid, centuries later, even<\/p>\n georule1861: A cynic can recognize the effect of chemicals and enjoy them at the same time.<\/p>\n aggirlj: lol<\/p>\n IrishBet: Sex is pretty easy to enjoy. A cynic would not expect to tie up his emotions<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: i bet RAH would have gotten around to rescuing her as he did maureen<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: in another book perhaps<\/p>\n georule1861: Whoa, that’s a thought.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Geo, when “everybody knows” about love, odds are that the answers are pretty scarcs<\/p>\n georule1861: Rescuing Dora might do violence to her wishes.<\/p>\n georule1861: I don’t know that Maureen ever make a conscience decision to die.<\/p>\n georule1861: Dora did.<\/p>\n georule1861: Clearly.<\/p>\n SedaGave: LL wouldn’t go back, that chapter was closed<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hard to do, anyway, since she was closely attended in her final days<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: LL wasn’t too happy when he got “rescued” in the beginning of the book – how many times did he hit the suicide button? three?<\/p>\n aggirlj: I gotta say, I like LL better in this than the last book.<\/p>\n SedaGave: four<\/p>\n morganuci: You mean, NotB?<\/p>\n georule1861: Well, that’s another question to get to tonight.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Yes.<\/p>\n georule1861: Clearly TEFL is on the early Future History charts.<\/p>\n georule1861: As “Da Capo”<\/p>\n AGplusone: I think you’re right, ToxD<\/p>\n georule1861: While writing it, to what degree if at all did he have some visibility of “World as Myth” to come?<\/p>\n georule1861: Or was that all later?<\/p>\n georule1861: No one who “rescued” LL at the beginning of TEFL had ever met him.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: might have been a forerunner<\/p>\n georule1861: They had no real emotional ties or obligations.<\/p>\n georule1861: Ira is pretty clear about that.<\/p>\n morganuci: He at least left himself openings. Given how far ahead he had the basic outline of the future history, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had the idea for WaM in 73<\/p>\n AGplusone: I don’t think he really got aboard the WaM until Number and then only partly. I think he decided to do it after he got the letters that followed Number and Expanded Universe.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, it was a novel theme<\/p>\n AGplusone: And after Franklin gave him something to shoot at …<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: No, World as Myth has its roots in Elsewhen.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: There are hints to WAM in ‘Elsewhen’ or least I read them that way.<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: That makes two of us. :>)<\/p>\n AGplusone: with Cabell as an example, you could say it might have been in the back of his mind, more or less, always.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the flip side of it is “Zombies”, not so?<\/p>\n georule1861: I wouldn’t say so.<\/p>\n georule1861: Zombies to me has always been “look ma!”<\/p>\n Ron0859 has left the room.<\/p>\n morganuci: “look ma”?<\/p>\n Bookman99R:Zomies was a look at the Meaning of Life, in the tragic sense<\/p>\n georule1861: Or maybe more accurately “Damon Knight call your office. . . the old man can write finely crafted shorts to blow your f’in mind too.”<\/p>\n georule1861: Well, I’m a bit of a heretic on Zombies, I admit it.<\/p>\n georule1861: I think it’s less about the storytelling than the technique.<\/p>\n georule1861: And the RAH I love is about the storytelling.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Cabell, to explain, decided to tie all his novels, some 20 or 30 or so, together well into writing them. He had to go back and reedit a few.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: if there is no more to the universe that chance and coincidence that brought us all here, with oblivion to follow, then the human experience is a tragedy<\/p>\n aggirlj: [This is news?]<\/p>\n georule1861: L’chaim! to the Tragedy!<\/p>\n georule1861: \/me crushes glass under heel.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and all we can hope to do is strive for the courage in the face of defeat that ARH mentioned<\/p>\n Bookman99R: what is new, jane?<\/p>\n aggirlj: [being cynical and snide]<\/p>\n Bookman99R: is there anything new under the sun?<\/p>\n georule1861: Very little.<\/p>\n georule1861: I think it’s time to prod Tim for a new Question.<\/p>\n morganuci: Great! Here it comes:<\/p>\n morganuci: A lot of the stories contained in TEFL set up unusual relationships, then ask, usually explictly, “Is this relationship acceptable?”<\/p>\n georule1861: Hmm!<\/p>\n morganuci: Each one pushes the envelope a little farther, to make the reader think. Is the Dora relationship another semi-incest situation, since LL raised her?<\/p>\n aggirlj: Yes there are challenges<\/p>\n georule1861: Door into Summer!<\/p>\n georule1861: Y’know, RAH doesn’t seem to believe in evil.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: why semi-incest – he goes all the way with maureen, laz, and lor<\/p>\n georule1861: The real evil sob like a jeffrey dahlmer<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yes, it’s another look at incest<\/p>\n aggirlj: i am reluctant to admit that sometimes I divest (to use a term) myself of the challenge. Not in my family!<\/p>\n georule1861: The real evil characters in Heinlein are cartoons.<\/p>\n georule1861: He doesn’t emotionally believe in evil sh*ts.<\/p>\n georule1861: And I’m not sure I agree with him there.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: he wasn’t fond of slace-holders<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: *slave<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I don’t think i agree with you, Geo<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: spaced at least one<\/p>\n AGplusone: If he has evil, it’s soft-peddled, like Dixon.<\/p>\n georule1861: Which part, Bookman?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I think that RAH just wasn’t much interested in understanding evil<\/p>\n AGplusone: [Been rereading To Sail]<\/p>\n georule1861: Well, there are some evil pedophiliac sobs in the world.<\/p>\n AGplusone: I think he understood it pretty well, just didn’t want to write about the Beasts.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: true<\/p>\n georule1861: Maybe that was it, David.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I will say that a lot of what is passed off as “evil”, he wouldn’t agree with<\/p>\n georule1861: He wasn’t exactly a naive man.<\/p>\n georule1861: He’d been a sailor, after all.<\/p>\n georule1861: He’d “been around the world”<\/p>\n AGplusone: Imagine him writing a story from the standpoint POV of Mrs. Keithley: how much like Johann S.B. Smith would she turn out to be?<\/p>\n georule1861: Mrs. Keithley was loud in my brain just now.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Inter sese<\/p>\n aggirlj: Okay, references I cannot understand.<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: I think he was ambivalent about evil.<\/p>\n georule1861: Gulf, Jane.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Thank you.<\/p>\n jilyd: Mrs. Keithlye–the eivil witch in Gulf, Jane.<\/p>\n aggirlj: One on the list.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and what of the rapist\/muderer in SST?<\/p>\n aggirlj: That is very long.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Or Mrs. Grew in Podkayne … just a mercenary like David Lamb. Or Sam Roberts or Richards if he hadn’t had the luck to get off earth.<\/p>\n jilyd: Maybe Rah understood evil plenty but had not desire to cultivate “understanding.” I dount he would have agreed witht hthe sentiment that to know all is to forgive all.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: a side effect of his Naval officer’s training?<\/p>\n AGplusone: That was Dillinger, Rusty. And Dillinger was a hero to Kansas and Missouri while they were chasing him, before the Lady in Red fingered him for the Feds.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the other guy may be the enemy, and you’ll have to kill him, but that doesn’t make him evil, perhaps?<\/p>\n morganuci: Kip brings up that exact saying in Have Space Suit, as I remember (“to know all…”) saying he doesn’t agree with it.<\/p>\n AGplusone has left the room.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Dillinger?<\/p>\n AGplusone has entered the room.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: if you’re are talking about RL influences on RAH, Jesse James is _much_ more liekly<\/p>\n aggirlj: wb<\/p>\n georule1861: This is the man who in Glory Road talked about squeamishness re “little brown sisters”<\/p>\n AGplusone: t’anks, whomever that was. Too many windows on my screen. Hit the wrong close button.<\/p>\n georule1861: Jesse James?<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: Consider Between Planets and the agent who interrogates David [?] the protagonist.<\/p>\n georule1861: Dont’ get me started on Missouri influences on Heinlein!<\/p>\n georule1861: You’ll regret it.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yes, Jesse Jmes<\/p>\n georule1861: And we won’t finish this discussion re TEFL<\/p>\n AGplusone: The SBI agent.<\/p>\n jilyd: I think REAy knew very well the difference between a foe and a villain.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Had a horse himself like Lazy.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: REAy?<\/p>\n aggirlj: Dee, as in those ‘traders’ that were really dumb that Dora and LL had to kill.<\/p>\n AGplusone: That’s what he tells Don.<\/p>\n georule1861: Deb see’s RAH quite alot like Don.<\/p>\n AGplusone: But I bet it wouldn’t have stopped him from torturing the horse.<\/p>\n georule1861: A city kid who plays at ranch\/farming.<\/p>\n georule1861: But doesn’t mean he doesn’t love it<\/p>\n georule1861: Just idealized it abit.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I’m out for a bit – got an errand to run<\/p>\n Bookman99R: later<\/p>\n aggirlj: Glad you could make iut.<\/p>\n morganuci: Bye!<\/p>\n aggirlj: it<\/p>\n jilyd: Yes, Jane, they were evil. Not “honorable enemies” at all.<\/p>\n SedaGave: bye, Bookman!<\/p>\n georule1861: The agent in Between Planets might get my nomination for realizstic SOB enemy in Heinlein.<\/p>\n georule1861: Because he follows the RAH rule of “no man is a villain in his own mind”<\/p>\n georule1861: While still being quite clearly one evil sob.<\/p>\n SedaGave: Headmaster in Red Planet? I forget his name…<\/p>\n georule1861: Not a bad nomination.<\/p>\n georule1861: But a little more cartoonish.<\/p>\n AGplusone: The one who is the reserve officer, and has his call-up orders, Seda?<\/p>\n AGplusone: He’s different than the SBI agent who interrogates Don in Chicago, who tells Don, Dr. Jefferson died of heart failure.<\/p>\n georule1861: Every death is heart failure.<\/p>\n georule1861: One of the more chilling lines in Heinlein.<\/p>\n AGplusone: So Don realizes.<\/p>\n georule1861: I should add, Between Planets was my first RAH.<\/p>\n SedaGave: Oh, I was thinking of Red Planet….<\/p>\n georule1861: So, y’know. . .<\/p>\n AGplusone: Mr. Howe.<\/p>\n SedaGave: ah, yes!<\/p>\n SedaGave: ty<\/p>\n georule1861: My wife, when really annoyed, will write “MYLBLAT!”<\/p>\n jilyd: Folds, I must say goodnoght. enjoyed.<\/p>\n georule1861: Dee, it was beautiful to see you!<\/p>\n aggirlj: Oh, yeah, nice to ‘see’ you Dee.<\/p>\n georule1861: “May you die gloriously!”<\/p>\n SedaGave: bye, Dee!<\/p>\n AGplusone: The SBI agent tells Don if he doesn’t talk they’ll have to fly Lazy the pony in to torture him until Don talks.<\/p>\n jilyd: Give Deb my love.<\/p>\n georule1861: will do<\/p>\n jilyd: Seda Gave, sorry I did not get to :meet” you more thoroughly.<\/p>\n AGplusone: See you, Sir Isaac.<\/p>\n jilyd: G’nite.<\/p>\n SedaGave: Next time, Dee \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n jilyd has left the room.<\/p>\n georule1861: So, okay, “MYLBLAT!” means?<\/p>\n AGplusone: Well, we’ve hit two hours quickly. Wanna try three tonight, Tim?<\/p>\n georule1861: Wrong book, I know.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Something Pixel says?<\/p>\n aggirlj: I’m starting to nod.<\/p>\n morganuci: I can go another hour, if everyone’s interested. Perhaps a break?<\/p>\n georule1861: May Your Life Be Long And Tedious!<\/p>\n SedaGave: lol<\/p>\n AGplusone: Still sounds like something Pixel would say.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: bye<\/p>\n georule1861: Heh.<\/p>\n aggirlj: bye<\/p>\n georule1861: Don says it, and Sir Isaac tsks at him.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: time for me to wind down – really enjoyed it everybody!<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: That’s pretty evil what he does to Don yet Heinlein makes him human, not a cardboard cut-out.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947 has left the room.<\/p>\n SedaGave: Bye, toxdoc!<\/p>\n georule1861: Don says it to the Mrs. Grundy character on the ship to Circum Terra<\/p>\n aggirlj: I’ve got to go. Do we have any suggestions for next meet?<\/p>\n SedaGave: TEFL part deux?<\/p>\n AGplusone: We didn’t get, really, to Da Capo.<\/p>\n aggirlj: That’ll work, I’m almost done.<\/p>\n SedaGave: it’s a big book<\/p>\n georule1861: It is a big book.<\/p>\n morganuci: Nothing’s planned yet. We can continue with TEFL. I agree, there’s lots more to discuss.<\/p>\n georule1861: I didn’t even get to Vietnam.<\/p>\n AGplusone: Maybe some pre-meeting posts?<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: Time Enough for Discussion!<\/p>\n aggirlj: Sounds good.<\/p>\n morganuci: I was out of town for the last ~1.5 weeks, so I didn’t have a chance this time.<\/p>\n AGplusone: You didn’t miss much, Geo, except the cooked dog.<\/p>\n SedaGave: And I’m half way thru Caleb Catlum’s America…<\/p>\n georule1861: Heh.<\/p>\n aggirlj: Why don’t you start it David? Some questions that maybe I could answer.<\/p>\n georule1861: We should do that as a subject sometime.<\/p>\n georule1861: Try to bring in multi volumes.<\/p>\n IrishBet: Cooked dog?<\/p>\n aggirlj: [We’r bro and sister for those of you who don’t know]<\/p>\n georule1861: Trooper, Glory Road, Moon, TEFL.<\/p>\n AGplusone: On TEFL questions … okay, I’ll do a little something I haven’t come up with before. Expect something a little farther out than usual. Help if everyone posted something. We can answer each others questions.<\/p>\n georule1861: Look at the whole picture rather than the microcosms.<\/p>\n morganuci: OK<\/p>\n georule1861: Re the charge of “militarism”<\/p>\n aggirlj: Okay, then, it was neat. Bye for now.<\/p>\n georule1861: ta<\/p>\n AGplusone: everyone knows how to find AFH?<\/p>\n SedaGave: Bye!<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: Wait! CCA is still in print???<\/p>\n georule1861 has left the room.<\/p>\n aggirlj has left the room.<\/p>\n AGplusone: I’ll put the question in the same thread.<\/p>\n morganuci: OK, then. Good night all!<\/p>\n AGplusone: find it on abebooks if not, JJ.<\/p>\n SedaGave: I bought mine used….a nice copy, tho….retired from Univ of Minnesota<\/p>\n extropiana@mac.com: I enjoyed everyone’s company. Thanks!<\/p>\n SedaGave: Bye, all who are leaving!<\/p>\n SedaGave: I got mine at biblio<\/p>\n AGplusone: http:\/\/www.abebooks.com\/servlet\/SearchResults?sts=t&y=0&tn =Caleb+Catlum&x=0<\/p>\n JJ Brannon: Thanks! Night all!<\/p>\n AGplusone: Got a full log, anyone?<\/p>\n JJ Brannon has left the room.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Got it<\/p>\n AGplusone: okay, I’ll jump off now then<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Night David!<\/p>\n AGplusone: Night all.<\/p>\n AGplusone has left the room.<\/p>\n morganuci has left the room.<\/p>\n IrishBet has left the room.<\/p>\n SedaGave: \/exit<\/p>\n SedaGave: oop<\/p>\n SedaGave has left the room.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Night all. Click Here to Return to Index<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Heinlein Readers Discussion Group Thursday 04\/05\/2007 9:00 P.M. EDT Time Enough For Love Click Here to Return to Index Here Begin The Postings From: “Tim Morgan” Date: 12 Mar 2007 10:51:46 -0700 Subject HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Time Enough for Love, April 5th HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED WHEN: April 5, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT…
\nDate: 12 Mar 2007 10:51:46 -0700
\nSubject HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Time Enough for Love, April 5th HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED WHEN: April 5, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom TOPIC: Time Enough For Love<\/p>\n
\nTim Morgan, for The Heinlein Society<\/p>\n
\nDate: 3 Apr 2007 15:18:46 -0700
\nSubject Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Time Enough for Love, April 5th<\/p>\n
\n> HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
\n> WHEN: April 5, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
\n> WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
\n> TOPIC: Time Enough For Love<\/p>\n
\n> as Myth, the next Heinlein Readers Group meeting will be devoted to
\n> discussion of the book Time Enough For Love. One of Heinlein’s
\n> longest works, this book is the capstone of the Future History
\n> series. It revived the Lazarus Long character, yet it’s about a lot
\n> more than just his adventures. First, because it weaves together many
\n> other stories that LL is relating, sort of like the flashbacks on the
\n> TV show Lost: they’re related stories, tell us something about why the
\n> characters are the way they are now, but they’re also interested in
\n> their own right. But Heinlein used LL’s unique perspective on life to
\n> make observations about it (exactly what the Howards wanted from him:
\n> his wisdom). Topics that the book addresses include the significance
\n> and meaning of life, self-awareness, love, and relationships. *Does*
\n> age bring wisdom? LL is a litmus test. Did the Howards get what they
\n> wanted\/needed in saving him? As usual in Heinlein, there are many
\n> minor themes woven in as well, such as observations on the nature and
\n> business of government.<\/p>\n
\n> Vincent McHugh’s Caleb Catlum’s America—hugely popular when it was
\n> published in 1936, but now largely forgotten and hard to come by. To
\n> quote Bill Patterson: “There are some passages in the Archivist’s
\n> remarks that are almost taken verbatim from the author’s introduction
\n> to CCA — a redheaded (and polymorphous perverse as taught by his
\n> grandfather, does any of this ring bells) immortal who had led his
\n> families in a flight from persecution.” I hope that someone who has
\n> read Caleb Catlum’s America can join the discussion to fill us in on
\n> it.<\/p>\n
\n> Tim Morgan, for The Heinlein Society<\/p>\n
\nSubject Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Time Enough for Love, April 5th On 3 Apr 2007 15:18:46 -0700, JaneE! wrote:<\/p>\n
\n>> HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
\n>> WHEN: April 5, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
\n>> WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
\n>> TOPIC: Time Enough For Love<\/p>\n
\n>> as Myth, the next Heinlein Readers Group meeting will be devoted to
\n>> discussion of the book Time Enough For Love. One of Heinlein’s
\n>> longest works, this book is the capstone of the Future History
\n>> series. It revived the Lazarus Long character, yet it’s about a lot
\n>> more than just his adventures. First, because it weaves together many
\n>> other stories that LL is relating, sort of like the flashbacks on the
\n>> TV show Lost: they’re related stories, tell us something about why the
\n>> characters are the way they are now, but they’re also interested in
\n>> their own right. But Heinlein used LL’s unique perspective on life to
\n>> make observations about it (exactly what the Howards wanted from him:
\n>> his wisdom). Topics that the book addresses include the significance
\n>> and meaning of life, self-awareness, love, and relationships. *Does*
\n>> age bring wisdom? LL is a litmus test. Did the Howards get what they
\n>> wanted\/needed in saving him? As usual in Heinlein, there are many
\n>> minor themes woven in as well, such as observations on the nature and
\n>> business of government.<\/p>\n
\n>> Vincent McHugh’s Caleb Catlum’s America—hugely popular when it was
\n>> published in 1936, but now largely forgotten and hard to come by. To
\n>> quote Bill Patterson: “There are some passages in the Archivist’s
\n>> remarks that are almost taken verbatim from the author’s introduction
\n>> to CCA — a redheaded (and polymorphous perverse as taught by his
\n>> grandfather, does any of this ring bells) immortal who had led his
\n>> families in a flight from persecution.” I hope that someone who has
\n>> read Caleb Catlum’s America can join the discussion to fill us in on
\n>> it.<\/p>\n
\n>> Tim Morgan, for The Heinlein Society<\/p>\n
\n> Thursday is the day. See you there.<\/p>\n
\nDate: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 22:30:19 +0000
\nSubject Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Time Enough for Love, April 5th Seeing as how there haven’t been many responses, I would suggest that you might want to check out previous discussions to get some ideas. https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/readersgroup\/AIM_10-12-2000.html https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/readersgroup\/AIM_10-14-2000.html David Wright Sr.
\nGo To Postings
\nHere Begins The Discussion Log<\/p>\n
\nGo To Postings Here Begins The Discussion Log<\/p>\n
Read more<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":205,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"ngg_post_thumbnail":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[45],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-2840","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-readersgroup"],"acf":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2840","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/205"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2840"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2840\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":8982,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2840\/revisions\/8982"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2840"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2840"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2840"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}