Click Here to Return to Index<\/a><\/p>\n Here Begin The Postings HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED The heading for these posts always says “The usual AIM chatroom.” In case you’re wondering what that means, and it’s been holding you back from joining us, you can find all of this information at this location:<\/p>\n https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/readersgroup\/index.html<\/p>\n That web page also lists transcripts from all previous chats.<\/p>\n For this month’s discussion, we’re leaving our usual format of discussing a specific book and instead we’re looking at a cross-book topic, aliens in Heinlein. And by “aliens”, I mean sentient beings who interact with the humans, not life forms we’d normally classify as animals. I noted that in many of Heinlein’s books, there are few if any aliens, while in others, they’re very prominently featured or a central focus of the story. Why do you think that is? The division isn’t “juvenile” vs. “adult”. Which aliens are your favorites, or least favorites?<\/p>\n And then there are the surprise entries. Heinlein often recycled certain character types, and I think the same is true with some of his alien life forms. Willis and the Star Beast come to mind, for instance. Or a surprise in the other direction, there are the Jocks. Besides making an interesting story, what’s Heinlein trying to say here?<\/p>\n Please join us in pre-discussion on the newsgroup, and in the real- time discussion next week.<\/p>\n Tim Morgan Tim Morgan (morgan…@gmail.com) writes: > The heading for these posts always says “The usual AIM chatroom.” In > https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/readersgroup\/index.html<\/p>\n > That web page also lists transcripts from all previous chats.<\/p>\n > For this month’s discussion, we’re leaving our usual format of At least they aren’t like Asimov books that have no aliens.<\/p>\n Surely the lack of aliens is derived from the stories themselves. If the story isn’t at a point in future history where alien life has been reached, one can hardly have aliens. Witness “Door INto Summer”; the lack of aliens fits the story. Even a book like “TIme for the Stars”, the lack of aliens isn’t shocking since even best estimates say life would hardly be common, the book itself even points out that it would be rare to find a planet of the right combination of things to sustain any life.<\/p>\n Some of the stories have the aliens as key components, such as “Red Planet”. The book would be different without Willis. Some stories do seem to have incidental aliens, “Between Planets” being an example, where Sir Isaac’s role could be played by someone else, yet the aliens were needed to show a disparate solar system, yet which is united on some level.<\/p>\n What might be more interesting is the nature of the aliens. They all tend to be “human like” to some extent, though not necessarily in form. Communication is possible because there is common ground. The aliens aren’t really esoteric, such as talking plants or rocks.<\/p>\n And generally the aliens in the stories are friendly. Well there are the Bugs in “Starship Troopers” but you could hardly have a war novel without an enemy. And the whatever in “Have Space Suit” but even then, the tone seemed to be that they weren’t evil but simply couldn’t grasp that humans were anything more than lowly animals.<\/p>\n There doesn’t seem to be much if any “first encounter”. Generally, the aliens are a given, they are part of the landscape. That sets up a different type of story from “land on a planet, meet the aliens and have intercourse”. But then, the books are less about exploring unknown planets than an existing universe.<\/p>\n Which in the end all likely defines things. Writers tend to write similarly, so Hal Clement was terribly interested in creating different types of aliens, sometimes in quite different environment. Others wanted to write about exploring. I’m not sure how one would define Heinlein, but he seemed to be more interested in the science and the people rather than exotic life forms.<\/p>\n Michael > Tim Morgan (morgan…@gmail.com) writes: I received this in response to the general invitation I sent out. (If you wish to have your name added to the Readers Group notification list, email me at maiko…@alltel.net<\/p>\n —– Original Message —– > And then there are the surprise entries. Heinlein often recycled Ginny once mentioned to me that the Martians in Red Planet Jim Cunningham<\/p>\n David E. Wright Sr. >Tim Morgan (morgan…@gmail.com) writes: >> The heading for these posts always says “The usual AIM chatroom.” In >> https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/readersgroup\/index.html<\/p>\n >> That web page also lists transcripts from all previous chats.<\/p>\n >> For this month’s discussion, we’re leaving our usual format of >At least they aren’t like Asimov books that have no aliens.<\/p>\n >Surely the lack of aliens is derived from the stories themselves. A quibble: There are definitely aliens in “Time for the Stars.” Remember the last planet they come to before being retrieved by the new-style interstellar ship–the mostly water world, with the giant snake-like critters who end up killing about half the crew.<\/p>\n -Chris Zakes Even a man who is pure in heart From: “Dr. Rufo” Tim Morgan wrote:<\/p>\n < snip ><\/p>\n > I noted that in many of Heinlein’s books, there are few if The story may require the aliens and that is when they’re included. e.g. the Martian trees in DOUBLE STAR. The Empire in that book includes both humans and non-humans and part of the story involves assuring equal civil rights for all citizens. An issue that was beginning to warm up in the U.S. at the time of the book’s publication. > The division The aliens I like most are the ones I’ve been able to imagine in my mind from the details RAH presents. E.g. Sir Isaac Newton in BETWEEN PLANETS. He’s always seemed to me to be a Heinleinian combination of the dancing hippopotami in Disney’s FANTASIA and every effeminate, upper-class British twit written into a film. > And then there are the surprise entries. Heinlein often recycled I don’t understand what you mean by “surprise entries.” What’s the surprise? I have to apologize for missing last Thursday’s appointed time for the readers group meeting. Unfortunately, I had a bad flu and was stuck in bed at the time. I’m back on my feet now, and I’d like to reschedule the meeting for this coming Thursday, November 1st, 6PM Eastern 9PM Pacific time. I’ll try to stay healthy until then!<\/p>\n Tim<\/p>\n Go To Posts You have just entered room “heinleinreadersgroup.”<\/p>\n Bookman99R has entered the room.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Welcome<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hi!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: what’s on the table this time?<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Tim was sick with the flue last week and my computer was offline for two days. Supposed to be Aliens in Heinlein.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: bummer<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: I’ll see if there are others who want in.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: right<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I’ll check with NW<\/p>\n toxdoc1947 has entered the room.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: what’s up, Doc?<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: wow, am I early or late?<\/p>\n Krin135 has entered the room.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: late, but I just got here myself<\/p>\n Krin135: evening all<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Just coming up. Haven’t seen Tim yet<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hi, Chuck – long time, no see<\/p>\n Krin135: David, Rusty<\/p>\n Krin135: yeah…it’s been an interesting year or two<\/p>\n rmlwj1 has entered the room.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: how goes the marriage?<\/p>\n rmlwj1: good evening<\/p>\n Krin135: this one is much better than the last one<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hello, RM<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n Krin135: hi RM, Tox<\/p>\n Bookman99R: good for you, then<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Thank you, David.<\/p>\n Krin135: danke<\/p>\n Bookman99R: you still in touch with Howard?<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: hi krin<\/p>\n Krin135: Sorry I missed the 100th party in KC<\/p>\n Krin135: My job had just changed from Butler to Salem<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yeah, I missed most of it, myself – wife was ill, mostly<\/p>\n Krin135: intermittantly<\/p>\n Krin135: sorry to hear that<\/p>\n rmlwj1: How was that? I had to work, couldn’t get time off.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but I did host the picnic I’d been threatening to hold<\/p>\n Krin135: good<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I got a link to some pix, if anyone’s interested<\/p>\n Bookman99R: picnic pix, that is<\/p>\n rmlwj1: sure.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: We’re supposed to start at 9:00 P.M. EST, but I haven’t seen our fearless leader yet. I will be AFK for a few minutes, so just be social for a bit.<\/p>\n Krin135: lol…wilco<\/p>\n rmlwj1: k<\/p>\n Krin135: how’s the kids, Rusty?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hugh57(dot)com<\/p>\n Bookman99R: slash cons<\/p>\n Bookman99R: it won’t let me post the link, for some reason<\/p>\n Bookman99R: slashrustys_bbq<\/p>\n Bookman99R: kids are good – 14 & 8, now<\/p>\n Bookman99R: or go to hugh57dotcom – the link is easy to find<\/p>\n Krin135: yeah…my boys are 13, 16, and 20,…girls are 29, 31 and 34<\/p>\n Krin135: with grands from 6 mos to 14 years<\/p>\n Bookman99R: you’re almost free!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n pakgwei has entered the room.<\/p>\n Krin135: yeah<\/p>\n Krin135: it will be interesting<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Oz, JanE!, & the Silvers made it, along with a few whose names escape me<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and a few lurkers & tag-alongs<\/p>\n morganuci has entered the room.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hi, pak & morg<\/p>\n pakgwei: hello<\/p>\n morganuci: Hi all!<\/p>\n Krin135: hi Pak, Morg<\/p>\n Bookman99R: tonight’s topic will be “Heinlein’s Aliens”, or something like that<\/p>\n Krin135: for the record, COL Paul Tibbetts died today<\/p>\n rmlwj1: ok<\/p>\n Krin135: Absent Comrades!<\/p>\n rmlwj1: dang.<\/p>\n pakgwei: read that earlier<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Absent comrades!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: absent comrades, indeed<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: Absent comrades!<\/p>\n rmlwj1: I’d suspected sometihng like that had occurred when I caught the tail end of “Enola Gay” on NPR.<\/p>\n Krin135: yeah…and the funny part is to look at the confusion between which bird dropped which bomb<\/p>\n Bookman99R: missed that<\/p>\n Krin135: I’m double checking, but IIRC Bock’s Car was deadlined and the crew was switched to another plane<\/p>\n Krin135: and my late Grandmother may have helped build those planes…something that I just realized<\/p>\n Bookman99R: heh<\/p>\n rmlwj1: funny, kinda.<\/p>\n morganuci: What work did your grandmother do during the war?<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Pop was drafted, told the VP of Transport at the Southern he’d orders to report.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: no telling what my G’parents worked on, back then – but they did work in Detroit during WWII<\/p>\n Krin135: ah…here it is…it was the EG..<\/p>\n rmlwj1: VP told him to come back later that afternoon.<\/p>\n Krin135: the plane was named the EG at the last minute<\/p>\n Krin135: Moms worked at the Martin plant in Omaha…at what is now Offut AFB<\/p>\n Krin135: started out on B-26 Marauders…later worked on the 29s<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Orders from draft board, endorsed in writing by Gen. Grove stating that Mr. Jester was assigned to present duties at SouRwy for “duration of the war or five years, whichever is greater.”<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Pop was one of less than half a dozen folks at SouRwy who knew exactly what was moving into Oak Ridge by rail.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: did you find the pictures, Chuck?<\/p>\n Krin135: http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Enola_Gay<\/p>\n Krin135: haven’t gotten to that one yet, Rusty<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ok<\/p>\n Bookman99R: still scratching my head as to why that link was “forbidden”<\/p>\n Krin135: working on it now<\/p>\n Krin135: nice gig…and clean link<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ok<\/p>\n Bookman99R: thanks<\/p>\n Krin135: have you gotten any fall color up there?<\/p>\n Krin135: the ozarks are rather dull this year<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yeah, some<\/p>\n Bookman99R: likewise here, for the most part<\/p>\n morganuci: We have lots here, but this is my first fall here, so I don’t know how it compares to previous years (Seattle area)<\/p>\n Bookman99R: back in a bit<\/p>\n Krin135: k<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Late starting here (Great Valley in VA)<\/p>\n Krin135: waiting is<\/p>\n morganuci: Shall we start?<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Fire When Ready!<\/p>\n rmlwj1: sure<\/p>\n Krin135: air mattress<\/p>\n morganuci: Does anyone have any particular book or alien they’d like to talk about first?<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: One of my favorites is Sir Isaac from Between Planets.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: and the rest of his clan.<\/p>\n rmlwj1: I agree, David.<\/p>\n Krin135: I’m feeling a bit rusty…my library has been packed for much of the last year<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Of course, he was one of the first that I ever encountered back in those ancient days.<\/p>\n rmlwj1: I can’t recall if I read Between Planets or Have Spacesuit first.<\/p>\n Krin135: beyond Martians, of which there were three types (Red Planet, Between Planets, and SIASL)<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: I think that BP was my first, but Starman Jones was a close contender. It had some interesting aliens.<\/p>\n morganuci: Do you see the Red Planet Martians as different from those in Stranger?<\/p>\n rmlwj1: yes, it did, David.<\/p>\n Krin135: I’m not sure…my memory of the two books was that the Earth Human time line was different in both of them<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: much more hands-off<\/p>\n Krin135: getting a bit more color here so that I can figure out who’s writting what<\/p>\n Krin135: in any case, were the Venusians the same in BP and Space Cadet?<\/p>\n morganuci: Red Planet was written in 1949, which was about the same time when RAH started working on Stranger. He clearly recycled at least some of the “features” of the Martians from one to the other.<\/p>\n Krin135: right…the ‘bounders’…had forgotten that they did resemble the nymphs<\/p>\n pakgwei: have to run<\/p>\n pakgwei has left the room.<\/p>\n morganuci: I’m thinking of the adults, mainly. Don’t they sit around thinking a lot? Admittedly, they take action by the end of Red Planet, while in Stranger<\/p>\n morganuci: they’d probably take 500 years to make a decision \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: In any case, were the Venusians the same in BP and Space Cadet?: No The aliens in Space Cadet and those in Logic of Empire were very similar, though. Also there were other Martians in Double Star different from the RP SIASL and BP<\/p>\n morganuci: What are the Martians in BP like? I’ve forgotten…<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Thin with pseudo-wings is all I remember. The ones in DS were like tree trunks.<\/p>\n rmlwj1: I can recall the ones in DS, but not BP.<\/p>\n morganuci: I think they’re pretty minor in BP. I guess that brings up something I asked in the meeting announcement:<\/p>\n morganuci: Sometimes, the aliens are just background, sometimes they’re a big part of the story. Often the most central to the story are those that are<\/p>\n morganuci: the “surprise” sentient beings, like the Star Beast. I don’t mean “surprise” in that an adult reader can’t predict where the story is going, but that<\/p>\n morganuci: the characters in the book are surprised :-).<\/p>\n Krin135: agreed<\/p>\n Bookman99R: can’t quibble<\/p>\n rmlwj1: agree, Morganuci.<\/p>\n Krin135: and how RAH managed to get “Raising ‘John Thomas’s'” past the censors<\/p>\n Krin135: was quite remarkable<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Simon, I can’t read your text, as it stands – dark on a dark background, is what I’m seeing<\/p>\n morganuci: Does everyone know the reference? Agree about the text—I can read it only by highlighting it.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: For a Freudian, Dogleash was quite inept, \ud83d\ude0e<\/p>\n Bookman99R: heh, yep<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I’m in the “it was deliberate” camp, on that point<\/p>\n Krin135: I’m not getting a dark backround on any of the text I’m receiving<\/p>\n rmlwj1: nor am I.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: might have something to do with different versions, i suppose<\/p>\n morganuci: I think so.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: nor am I.<\/p>\n Krin135: could be<\/p>\n rmlwj1: I’m on Trillian, FWIW.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: that might be part of it<\/p>\n Bookman99R: part of it<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I got infected!<\/p>\n morganuci: Yeah, what happened?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: as for how it got past the censors, I suspect that they aren’t as widely-read as they thought themselves to be<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I cut & pasted some of Simon’s text, and it re-set my background<\/p>\n Krin135: or at least weren’t particular Anglophiles<\/p>\n rmlwj1: I agree, Rusty.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: oh, Motherthing sends her greetings<\/p>\n Krin135: ah…Salutations and Felicitations returned to Herself<\/p>\n Bookman99R: she’s been busting out some Physics homework, so she’s too tired to come out & play<\/p>\n rmlwj1: \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n Krin135: her own homework or fot the teen?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: her’s<\/p>\n Krin135: ah…with or without calc?<\/p>\n Krin135: calculus, not calculator<\/p>\n Bookman99R: she’s had 2 terms of calc, so far<\/p>\n Krin135: ok..<\/p>\n Krin135: tease her about sheets of butcher paper and a slipstick then<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ok<\/p>\n rmlwj1: snicker<\/p>\n morganuci: OK, we’ve all said we liked this or that alien character. What makes you “like” an alien—what makes them interesting to us?<\/p>\n Krin135: for me, the way that RAH used them to hold up a mjrror<\/p>\n Krin135: mirror<\/p>\n Bookman99R: that’s easy – similarities & differences<\/p>\n Bookman99R: just as with human interactions<\/p>\n Krin135: to show us that we are more alike<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Good point, Krin.<\/p>\n Krin135: than we want to acknowlege<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hmmm<\/p>\n morganuci: You don’t think so?<\/p>\n rmlwj1: sure<\/p>\n Bookman99R: are the Jockairan “gods” alone among Heinlein’s not-human-at-all aliens<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ?<\/p>\n rmlwj1: delete that “sure” wrong window. Sorry.<\/p>\n Krin135: who was more alien? Homo superior of Friday<\/p>\n morganuci: Well, what about the Martians in Stranger? They’re pretty different, and godlike, compared to humans.<\/p>\n Krin135: or VMS?<\/p>\n Krin135: godlike, yes<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the Martians of SiaSL weren’t ‘on screen’ much<\/p>\n Krin135: but like the Olympians, having their share of blind spots<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but it’s a thought<\/p>\n morganuci: In Star Trek, there’s some kind of alien on every planet. That’s sort of what makes the episode “happen”—they land, interact, move on.<\/p>\n morganuci: But in Time Enough For Love, for instance, the universe seems to consist of many earthlike planets, all populated by humans, with the only alien-occupied planets being the ones that were in Methuselah’s Children.<\/p>\n morganuci: I think Heinlein wrote TEfL this way because he wanted to focus on human emotions, human interactions, and not be distracted. In contrast, in Stranger, clearly the purpose is to have a foil against which to measure humanity.<\/p>\n Krin135: true<\/p>\n morganuci: And even there, he used a human, rather than a human-like alien. I guess that was partly necessary since you needed to have the “alien” experience sex.<\/p>\n rmlwj1: makes sense, Morganuci.<\/p>\n morganuci: TEFL doesn’t just pretend that the Jock gods weren’t around. I think Laz says something about going back there? Or does go back?<\/p>\n Krin135: one point that is often underrated is the breeding capacity of Genus Homo<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Long went back & killed them<\/p>\n Bookman99R: no reason for as to why was ever really given, IIRC<\/p>\n Krin135: given half a chance and a decent star drive<\/p>\n morganuci: He didn’t like that they subjegated (sp?) the Jocks and would have done the same to the humans, and the effect they had on Slayton Ford.<\/p>\n Krin135: ok..now you’ve got my interest piqued<\/p>\n Krin135: I’m going to have to get a new copy of TEfL now<\/p>\n morganuci: I see it as a bit of Heinlein’s fear of communism, or dictatorships. Laz’s reaction is like that to the slugs in The Puppetmasters, which was probably an allegory about communism.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: given that the galaxy is big, it takes a fairly powerful motivation to go back & commit genocide<\/p>\n Krin135: dagnab it, David<\/p>\n Krin135: someone needs to convince the Board and the Estate Trustees to cut a deal with Baen<\/p>\n morganuci: Yeah, I always thought it was a bit off-hand. Has anyone read the Ender series by Orson Scott Card?<\/p>\n Krin135: to get the rest of the books on Webwrigths<\/p>\n Krin135: most of it, Morgan<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yeah, although the later books get preachier than RAH, IMO<\/p>\n morganuci: Agreed. I was thinking of the twist that Ender is at first a hero for killing all the buggers, then later vilified for having committed genocide.<\/p>\n Krin135: and while we are seeing some benefits from kids playing computer games<\/p>\n Krin135: there still needs to be Cap Troopers and ‘boots on the ground’<\/p>\n Krin135: concur, Morgan<\/p>\n Bookman99R: true<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Might e-mail Toni Weisskopf.<\/p>\n Krin135: which was part of the parable of the Skinnies in SST<\/p>\n rmlwj1: She’s a bit much on her plate now, her husband died a few days ago, so a response may take a bit.<\/p>\n Krin135: because we were able to put boots on the ground of the Skinny worlds<\/p>\n Krin135: oh, damn…what happened?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, the Skinnies also served to show that the ST gov’t also employed diplomacy<\/p>\n Krin135: yes, Rusty<\/p>\n Bookman99R: or more to the point, that said diplomacy was yoked to military action<\/p>\n Krin135: and that there should always be a stick to go with the carrot<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Hank went into cardiac failure, had a CABG, post op infections and, IMO, renal failure.<\/p>\n Krin135: like the Great White Fleet<\/p>\n Bookman99R: sorry to hear that – hope she’s OK<\/p>\n Krin135: crap…I’ve seen that before…was he a diabetic as well?<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Not to my knowledge.<\/p>\n Krin135: k…that’s the most common situation to combine heart failure with kidney loss<\/p>\n rmlwj1: He looked a tad pale at Liberty in July, but he was fair complected, so I didn’t pay as much attention to it as I probably should have.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and you’re right about “carrot & stick”, Chuck<\/p>\n Bookman99R: not to mention the fact that not all cultures respond well to “we come in peace”<\/p>\n Krin135: in any case, as an XGI, I always understood that part of my job was to make sure that we could cash the checks that the dipple corps and pols were continuing to write<\/p>\n Bookman99R: indeed<\/p>\n Bookman99R: alas that _they_ don’t keep that in mind, all too often<\/p>\n Krin135: IIRC, in most non cosmopolitian cultures, the word for ‘stranger’ is usually the opposite of ‘friend’…<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yep<\/p>\n Krin135: taken to the extreme, the tribal\/clan cultures from the Balkans to the ‘Stans…<\/p>\n Bookman99R: even the Soviet culture didn’t do very well with the concept of “equals”, as I understand it<\/p>\n Krin135: ‘me against my brother’<\/p>\n Krin135: my brother and I against our cousin<\/p>\n Bookman99R: politically & diplomatically, at any rate<\/p>\n Krin135: the three of us against the world<\/p>\n Krin135: interestingly enough, both in the Islamic and Russian cultures<\/p>\n Krin135: consider *any* land once occupied by the culture<\/p>\n Bookman99R: cross-pollination, perhaps?<\/p>\n Krin135: forever a part of that culture<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yeah, there’s that<\/p>\n rmlwj1: heh. Good luck on getting East Germany back.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and “what’s mine, is _mine_. What’s yours is negotiable”<\/p>\n Krin135: was thinking more about a reserected Caliphate trying to retake Seville<\/p>\n Krin135: or a resurgent Moscow trying for Alaska<\/p>\n Bookman99R:<\/p>\n morganuci: Were the centar-like creatures in Starman Jones “aliens” or just animals?<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Somehow I don’t think Putin’s crowd is quite that stupid.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, they were able to communicate & cooperate<\/p>\n Krin135: and the vision of all of the Balkanoid cults and cultures (except maybe the Albanians and Bosnians)<\/p>\n Krin135: rising against the Turks…<\/p>\n Bookman99R: effectivly co-ordinated the equivalent of combined-arms military action<\/p>\n Bookman99R: that, Chuck, would likely get ugly fast<\/p>\n Krin135: mmm…Morgan, porpoise pods and to a lesser extent wolf packs do much the same<\/p>\n morganuci: Indeed. I think in the end, what we learn about them isn’t enough to know for sure. I was just soliciting opinions<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yes, but those are all same-species actions<\/p>\n Krin135: point taken, Rusty<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the centaurs operated across species boundaries<\/p>\n Krin135: in any case, I must bow out<\/p>\n Krin135: been a long day<\/p>\n rmlwj1: night, sleep well.<\/p>\n Krin135: and I must be up again in the am<\/p>\n morganuci: Goodnight!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: g’night<\/p>\n Krin135: Vaya Con, all<\/p>\n Krin135 has left the room.<\/p>\n morganuci: But were the centaurs just using stuff in the environment? A chimp can do that, and birds have been seen to fashion and use simple tools.<\/p>\n morganuci: Are the centaurs meant to be “in betweens” like a chimp?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but as for the ‘taurs, the question revolves back to “what constitutes ‘human'”?<\/p>\n morganuci: Indeed! I was hoping someone would bring that up. Ideas\/opinions?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: how many animals domesticate other animals?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: or ‘enslave’, if you like the term better<\/p>\n rmlwj1: I think RAH wrote that with the ‘taurs ans the area dominant race being “human equivalent” for that planet.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: oh, and thanks for fixing the text, Simon<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yeah, but it’s another example of truly ‘alien’ aliens<\/p>\n rmlwj1: yeah, it is.<\/p>\n morganuci: Yeah, my personal guess is that they are at least somewhat intelligent. Or yes, they might be just so different in thinking patterns that we can’t relate to them much.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: off-hand, i favor the latter<\/p>\n morganuci: OK, here’s one that’s so far out in left field, you may want to declare it a foul ball: Jonathan Hoag. What about the super aliens in there?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and culturally homogenous enough that they didn’t develop a technical culture<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Intelligent, yes, but I agree on the different thinking pattern.<\/p>\n morganuci: Humans didn’t have much of a technical culture for millenia.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I dunno if Hoag fits – more of “humans of a different design”, in that case<\/p>\n Bookman99R: save for Hoag, who was a god\/angel type<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but back at you: the Angels in Job – aliens?<\/p>\n morganuci: whoa, hadn’t thought of that!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: they are certainly not humans, and they only have some motivations in common with us<\/p>\n Bookman99R: presuming that in the context of this chat, aliens are “non-human, intelligent beings”, rather than exotic animals<\/p>\n morganuci: I was myself interested in the sentient aliens because they provide a contrast to humans, and often in SF they are a central pillar of the story, while that isn’t usually true in Heinlein.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: we really don’t know much about the angels – they are rather disdainful of humans, are subject to likes & dislikes, son’t seem to have gender, are jealous of status, and some like to eat<\/p>\n morganuci: We aren’t necessarily limited to the sentient ones. And yes, we’ve been (mis) using “alien” to mean that.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yeah, but there’s not much to discuss about alien cattle<\/p>\n morganuci: There’s always the stubor \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the critter that LL mis-reported, in a blurb in TEFL might be interesting, but there’s little to go on<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, sure – that was the point!<\/p>\n morganuci: What’s that?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: in the ‘notebooks’ section, some critter that broadcasts euphoria when petted<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Long closes the paragraph by saying thaat they aren’t where he said they were<\/p>\n rmlwj1: cats do that, at times.<\/p>\n morganuci: Flat cats?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: heh<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Knaffn?<\/p>\n rmlwj1: heh<\/p>\n Bookman99R: something like that<\/p>\n morganuci: brb<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ok<\/p>\n Bookman99R: me 2<\/p>\n Bookman99R: back<\/p>\n morganuci: me too<\/p>\n Bookman99R: have the water dragons in TFTS been mentioned?<\/p>\n morganuci: not yet—go ahead<\/p>\n rmlwj1: Don’t think so.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: they seemed to possess some level of inteligence, at least on the level of the ‘taurs<\/p>\n Bookman99R: (although i spell in english better then they do!)<\/p>\n starfall2 has entered the room.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I found fresh blood!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n starfall2: hi<\/p>\n Bookman99R: welcome, Star<\/p>\n morganuci: welcome<\/p>\n rmlwj1: evening<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: hey star<\/p>\n Bookman99R: last alien brought up was the water-dragons from “Time for the Stars”, but there doesn’t seem to be anywhere to go with them<\/p>\n starfall2: well, i’ve got no input on them. i don’t think i’ve gotten to that one yet<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lucky you<\/p>\n Bookman99R: what’s your favorite alien?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: come to that, have we ticked off on RAH’s ‘bad guy aliens’?<\/p>\n morganuci: not yet. That was another contrast I wanted to get to.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the wormfaces, the beasts, the centaurs, the ‘dragons’<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: black-hats<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but he didn’t seem to much go in for black-hat aliens, much<\/p>\n morganuci: “humans are the most dangerous creature”<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yeah, there’s that<\/p>\n Bookman99R: although it would be hard to say who’d win, human vs wormface<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: weren’t the villians black-hats in TNOTB?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yeah, I termed them “beasts”, but same thing<\/p>\n Bookman99R: absent the Mother Thing’s intervention WRT wormfaces, anyway<\/p>\n morganuci: What I meant was, that was his usual theme, but sometimes he varied from it by having a wormface type around. yeah, they were pretty bad compared to the technology of the humans<\/p>\n morganuci: I think if they’d gone to war, the humans would have lost the first battles, but dug in, invented new stuff, and won in the end.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but pseudo-peer aliens that are intratably enemies of H. Sap. are thin on the ground<\/p>\n Bookman99R: in a RAH book, you bet<\/p>\n Bookman99R: never hurts to have the Author as an ally<\/p>\n Bookman99R: \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n Bookman99R: people in the USA don’t really respect a good Tragedy any more, though<\/p>\n morganuci: How would you contrast Heinlein’s use of aliens with those of other SF writers of his time, and\/or of current times?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and i don’t just mean Poddy, either<\/p>\n Bookman99R: RAH attempted, for the most part successfully, to have aliens that had alien cultures & mindsets<\/p>\n Bookman99R: previous art tended to either use ’em as BEMs, or stand-ins for other human groups<\/p>\n Bookman99R: allegory<\/p>\n Bookman99R: at least, that’s my take on it – I didn’t grow up reading golden-age stuff, only got dribs & drabs<\/p>\n Bookman99R: heh – possibly the best exaple was the strato-people in “Goldfish Bowl”<\/p>\n Bookman99R: utterly alien, and yet, not ‘gods’, either<\/p>\n morganuci: Yeah, I like them!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, _you_are welcome to inhabit one of their bowls… \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but recall that Campbell didn’t want to publish that one<\/p>\n morganuci: why not?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I’d say that was telling, WRT the take on aliens of the time<\/p>\n Bookman99R: it’s discussed in “Grumbles”, but<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the short of it was that JWC thought the story was too “heavy”, as opposed to the light, escapist stuff that he considered SF to be at the time<\/p>\n morganuci: I see. I’d forgotten about that.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: may I ask you age, Morgan?<\/p>\n morganuci: 48<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ok, a bit older than I am (41)<\/p>\n morganuci: But not so old that I grew up reading in the golden age ;-). I was reading RAH in the 70s initially.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: do you see the other aliens of the times being much different from as I described them?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yeah, me too<\/p>\n morganuci: No, I agree with you.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: RAH really pushed that envelope, IMO<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and even today, a lot of authors write aliens in the mode of – call ’em Star Trek Aliens<\/p>\n rmlwj1: yeah, that seems to be the current mode.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: STAs being humans in funky clothes, with a paint job & a few prosthetics<\/p>\n morganuci: Yeah. Of course, in the 60s that’s all the could afford to do!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I’m thinking ST:TOS for that descriptive, BTW<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yeah, but it wasn’t just a matter of cost – the bulk of Roddenberry’s aliens were simple allegory, mostly the rest were Bug-Eyed Monsters<\/p>\n morganuci: Agreed!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: even Card’s aliens, in the Ender books, were eventually watered down into pseudo-humans<\/p>\n morganuci: Yes. Unfortunately, if the aliens are too alien, you can’t relate to them, and they’re usually going to appear just as a threat that we should blow up.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hmmm… Niven’s Kzin usually made the cut, when it came to avoiding allegory<\/p>\n morganuci: Tell us about them.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the Sentient cats?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: you know them, right?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Intelligent, aggressive & warlike, with social charachteristic that could be taken as descended from cat-type animals<\/p>\n Bookman99R: gad, this is starting to feel like an interview! lol<\/p>\n morganuci: No, I haven’t read about them. What book(s) are they in?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, the Man-Kzin wars, to start with<\/p>\n Bookman99R: don’t recall any other titles, it’s been a long time<\/p>\n morganuci: OK, thanks. Are there other aspects of the aliens topic that we haven’t covered? I’m running out of leading questions.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n morganuci: Hey, I’m serious!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, RAH did kinda dabble in “alien by choice”, in the homo superiors in Friday<\/p>\n Bookman99R: parallels include Pournelle’s “Saurons”, and Stirling’s “Draka”<\/p>\n morganuci: There’s some aspect of that in the real world. Some groups want to separate themselves from society for political reasons mainly.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: althought they were rather better-developed<\/p>\n Bookman99R: call it socio-political, i think<\/p>\n Bookman99R: in all 3 cases mentioned, the basis seems to be a feeling of\/belief in their own superiority<\/p>\n morganuci: That’s pretty similar, then.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and common to such groups, I think, is that they have a need to prove it, in one form or fashion<\/p>\n morganuci: It’s also a feeling that plays well to the typical SF readership.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hmmm…<\/p>\n Bookman99R: perhpas<\/p>\n morganuci: Aren’t we superior to most humans :-)?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n morganuci: And the typical nerdy SF reader also feels alienated (pun intended) from society etc.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, when i look around the average ‘con, I tend to think “what an amazing array of talent that is mostly going to waste!”<\/p>\n morganuci: True!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: perhaps, but then again, there’s the “As on a Darkling Plain” factor<\/p>\n Bookman99R: not many people really feel all that accepted & confident<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but mundanes are better at putting on the facade than fen<\/p>\n Bookman99R: or that last could just be the sour grapes of an old SF nerd… \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n morganuci: lol<\/p>\n rmlwj1: lol<\/p>\n morganuci: So are there other Heinlein aliens people want to talk about, or aspects of them, etc.?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I will note that there are human aliens-by-choice that don’t have much to prove, beyond proving how weird they are\/can be<\/p>\n Bookman99R: goths, punks, & the like<\/p>\n Bookman99R: humm<\/p>\n morganuci: I agree with that.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: not sure there’s a parallel to that in RAH’s works<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the super-intelligent cannbles mentioned in TEFL?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: cannibals<\/p>\n Bookman99R: odd that the various martians got so little table-time, isn’t it?<\/p>\n morganuci: Maybe so. Or just the homo superiors that we started this with.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: especially the DS Martians – one of his better-fleshed cultures<\/p>\n rmlwj1: yes it was.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: granted that RAH didn’t dabble much, that way – he wrote books about humans, for humans, mostly<\/p>\n morganuci: That’s a good point. RAH tends to show alien HUMAN cultures rather than alien cultures. Maybe this comes from his round the world tour?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: somewhat, i think<\/p>\n Bookman99R: certainly the first trip changed his perspective on such things<\/p>\n Bookman99R: especially the stop at that remote island<\/p>\n morganuci: Yeah, I’m thinking he was trying to show that humans have a very wide range<\/p>\n Bookman99R: trying to talk to the locals, and finding that there really wasn’t much basis for communication – he’d met some “aliens”<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yep<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but on the plus side, he didn’t really devolve into allegory, much<\/p>\n Bookman99R: satire & comedy, certainly<\/p>\n Bookman99R: examination of the human condition, certainly – an outside perspective really helps with that<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Question:<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I’ve noticed that when I attend chats, i tend to be one of the talkers. Am I adding antything, or am I drowning out some better voices?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: these chats, that is<\/p>\n rmlwj1: I don’t think so.<\/p>\n starfall2: well, you’re not drowning me out.<\/p>\n morganuci: I’m getting a lot out of it myself. But I’d love to hear from the others also.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Well, I would normally say a lot more, but it’s been a few hard days and I am pretty sapped out.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I grok that, David<\/p>\n Bookman99R: BTDT<\/p>\n starfall2: i’d normally at least say a little, but i haven’t had much time for reading, and it’s been a rough few days for me, as well<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I’m just checking that I’m not hogging the mike, so to speak<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I been known to go on, a bit \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n morganuci: It’s on topic, so no one can complain<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, to quote one of Stirling’s books “we’re here to talk, so let’s talk”…<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n rmlwj1: yep, and I seem to be of similar thoughts, so you’ve expressed mine well also.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: quite a compliment, sir<\/p>\n Bookman99R: thank you<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but unless someone can push another button, or drop in another nickle, I’m fresh out of new ideas<\/p>\n Bookman99R: flat cats, cabbages, & water-seekers don’t really stretch the topic<\/p>\n Bookman99R: RAH did mention on human culture that would stand in for an alien one, though<\/p>\n Bookman99R: in TR, the one where successful lying, scheming & murder were considered admirable traits<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: thoughts about “the circle” in TCWWTW? Some of them were at least a little alien iirc<\/p>\n Bookman99R: anyone recall the name of the people?<\/p>\n morganuci: I’m stumped<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, there was the ERB Martian there<\/p>\n Bookman99R: Sambo?<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: yep, and the grey lensman<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: iirc<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: The Circle of Ouroboros?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: he would do, especially for ‘alien by choice’<\/p>\n Bookman99R: here’s something:<\/p>\n Bookman99R: is there an important difference between sufficiently alien humans, versus non-human aliens?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: and if so, how\/what?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: that _is_ a theme explored by RAH<\/p>\n morganuci: I suppose not.<\/p>\n rmlwj1: thought processes, I’d think.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: case in point, the Shasta story<\/p>\n starfall2: i’d say perhaps the idea that the alien humans would be seen as having chosen to be different (regardless of whether or not they consciously made that decision), while the non-human aliens are automatically non-human<\/p>\n rmlwj1: possibly value systems, which are integral to thought processes.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: good point, Star<\/p>\n morganuci: I think in a thousand years, you’d get quite a lot of divergence in societies. Eventually, evolutionary divergence would also happen.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: crainly value systems, in either case<\/p>\n Bookman99R: if values\/motivations are sufficiently alien, whether in numan or non-human, then the culture is effectivly alien<\/p>\n morganuci: I think so<\/p>\n Bookman99R: body shape is of less importance<\/p>\n Bookman99R: did RAH ever touch an complementary aliens, the way that Alan Dean Foster did with the Thranx?<\/p>\n morganuci: ‘splain<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ADF wrote the Thranks (intelligent insectoids) as being the complement of humanity<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the two races shored up each other’s weaknesses, complememnted each other’s strenghts<\/p>\n morganuci: I can’t immediately think of any RAH story where the humans worked with another race. And I think that’s a big contrast to many other writers.<\/p>\n rmlwj1: folks, I’ve got to head to bed, thank you all for a pleasant evenning.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: g’night, Simon<\/p>\n morganuci: Thanks for joining us! Goodnight.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: thanks for dropping by<\/p>\n rmlwj1: It’s been quite a while, I enjoyed myself.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: for those interested in the Thranx, “Nor Crystal Tears” is a good place to start<\/p>\n starfall2: goodnight<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hmmm…<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: back to DS, the pilot’s relationship with the Martians, might be an indicator<\/p>\n Bookman99R: heya, Nuke!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: brb<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening<\/p>\n starfall2: hi!<\/p>\n morganuci: Hey!<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Sorry for the late arrival.<\/p>\n morganuci: I know<\/p>\n Bookman’s not here right now, but my thought is that the Martian and Venerian aliens mostly live apart from the humans, and they mostly ignore each other, rather than work together.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: back<\/p>\n starfall2: wb<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: It seemed to me that the venerians were a “young” race and the Martians were elders barely noticing the humans in the middle<\/p>\n Bookman99R: good to see you here, bud – these nice folks been letting me run my mouth for _far_ too long \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: I could be conflating books though<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: LOL Is that a nice way of saying I am running mine?<\/p>\n morganuci: No! Go right ahead<\/p>\n Bookman99R: nope<\/p>\n Bookman99R: saying that I could use someone to work against<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hard to have a discussion where everyone agrees, no?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Hmm, which side of this would you like to take?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: I came in in the middle<\/p>\n Bookman99R: heh<\/p>\n Bookman99R: not really on a side<\/p>\n Bookman99R: you know the topic, right?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Yes<\/p>\n Bookman99R: pick an alien, any alien. Potificate<\/p>\n morganuci: pretty much!<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Although I did not post on it in AFH as I was shocked that people seemed to think that Heinlein wrote benevolent aliens<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I’m about tapped out on thigs to say, but you & I don’t see things the same way<\/p>\n Bookman99R: benevolent? Well, not exactly<\/p>\n morganuci: Well, excluding the mean ones \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: lol<\/p>\n toxdoc1947: am getting punchy – beddie bye time for me<\/p>\n Bookman99R: alines with parallel, but not identical veiws\/goals is more like it<\/p>\n Bookman99R: g’night, Doc<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: The Heinlein Martians of the VMS universe were not.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: nope – they had an agenda all their own<\/p>\n morganuci: I wouldn’t say they’re benevolent. I’d say they’re self-serving, just like the humans.<\/p>\n toxdoc1947 has left the room.<\/p>\n morganuci: Goodnight, Doc!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but it was mostly internalized, so didn’t much affect humanity<\/p>\n starfall2: i should probably go as well. puppy needs a walk, and i’ve got some more papers to grade for tomorrow<\/p>\n starfall2: goodnight!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ok<\/p>\n morganuci: Goodnight!<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Perhaps, if you mean that being racially aware and working for the greatest good of the race is “self serving”<\/p>\n Bookman99R: g’night<\/p>\n starfall2 has left the room.<\/p>\n morganuci: I mean, their interest isn’t the benefit of the humans.<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Certainly they were the most alien race written at that point<\/p>\n morganuci: But it may be that their interests happen to coincide with that.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: the VMS marians? hardly<\/p>\n Bookman99R: interests barely touched, to my way of thinking<\/p>\n morganuci: No, I meant the supposed benevolent aliens in RAH.<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: I don’t know. The beauty of the destruction of the 5th planet always shook me.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: quite an example of different values & outlook<\/p>\n morganuci: I think they see beauty in whatever they grok is the right thing to do. Convenient, no?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: to those martinas, the inevitable correct result would always be “beautiful”, not so?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Very convenient, and coldly logical<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I suppose to that set, even the destruction of their own race would be beautiful, if they grokked it as necessary<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Not in anger, nor with resignation. They enjoyed doing what they did.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: heh “brightly, brightly, and with beauty”<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Didn’t you get that as the inevitable end to allowing Mike to continue to grok?<\/p>\n morganuci: Absolutely. Do they ever have to turn one of themselves 90 degrees from everything?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: That just sends them to the beginning.<\/p>\n morganuci: Whoa, you mean that they have planted the seeds of their own destruction?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: prolly not – not wasting the meat is fairly core to their beliefs<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Didn’t you get that from when Mike talked to Jill not long after he was downloaded?<\/p>\n morganuci: True, but if one of them were so “evil” (in our terms) to need that, would they want to grok him?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: ISTM that they would<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ah, but their destruction, or merely being swept onto an existential “reservation”, as it were?<\/p>\n morganuci: Can you destroy the old ones?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Their promotion en mass to Old Ones<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: I am only an egg Marganuci<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: -a+o<\/p>\n morganuci: So it’s another the-humans-come-from-behind-to-win-out-in-the-end Heinlein story<\/p>\n Bookman99R: only in its potential<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Hmm, not certain it is so simple as that<\/p>\n Bookman99R: likewise with the slugs in TPM<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: The Old Ones can still cause the core of the earth to disapear<\/p>\n morganuci: It was never clear to me how the slugs built spaceships, or if they’d have any other weapons.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: they enslaved other intelligent beings, of course<\/p>\n Bookman99R: maybe in a situation like that in “Alien”<\/p>\n morganuci: I assumed the same thing. So we wouldn’t know what they might be capable of.<\/p>\n morganuci: And did they transmit back to Titan the experiences of those on earth? If so, even if they didn’t before, they’d know our technologies.<\/p>\n morganuci: (then)<\/p>\n Bookman99R: well, in general form, sure<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but the devil’s in the details<\/p>\n morganuci: Yeah, again there’s not enough detail in the book to know for sure, so we’re left to speculate.<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Once it is time to railroad…<\/p>\n Bookman99R: thinking on that one, how important is the Titan base, for that?<\/p>\n morganuci: Titan always seemed an unlikely home planet to me. Maybe it was a base for attack, like Pluto for the wormfaces?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: that would be my thought<\/p>\n Bookman99R: probably in the same mode as “Footfall” used<\/p>\n Bookman99R: a one-way trip, conquer or die<\/p>\n morganuci: So they could be like a virus, spread all over the galaxy, thus very hard to wipe out.<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Did Sam say something about extrasolar origins?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: no follow-on wave neede or planned for<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: When they tortured the slug on him for info?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: virus might be the best way to put it<\/p>\n morganuci: I don’t remember anything but Titan?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: ISTR that extrasolar was listed as a possibility, but not definitively<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: I am not certain on it, just a tickle of a memory<\/p>\n morganuci: It’s a bit Borg-like also, picking up different races’ technologies along with the races themselves.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: but then, the “restored” version might nave more clues<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: I will see which one is currently on the shelf upstair5s.<\/p>\n morganuci: True, it’s quite a bit longer.<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Assuming the boiy has not stolen them all.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I haven’t read the new\/old version, really need to track one down<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Anyone want a redheaded book theif, cheap?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n morganuci: Many people like it a lot better than the originally-published version.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: give him time – my elser one has learned to forage for herself<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I know I liked the restored SISL better<\/p>\n morganuci: Me too. And Red Planet?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: I like both versions of both.<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: I have not got the new Red Planet<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I read the excerpts of RP in Grumbles<\/p>\n Bookman99R: was there more than that?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Of course she has, Rusty, she probably read everything you had, and stole all the good ones already. Self defense and a healthy appetite drove her to larger feeding grounds<\/p>\n morganuci: Jane Davitt wrote an article in The Heinlein Journal comparing the two versions. I think you can find it online…let me look<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, it is there.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: no, she’s only brushed over lightly, on our library – her tastes are developing differently<\/p>\n morganuci: https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/rah\/works\/novels\/redplanetbluepencil.html<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: One of the trolls posted it a couple of weeks back<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I’ll have to read it later<\/p>\n morganuci: We’re about at the end of our published time. Do we want to keep going? I have a few more minutes available, but not many.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: up to NW, I think<\/p>\n Bookman99R: comments on the Jocko ‘gods’, Nuke?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: I need sleep. I am sorry to have arrived late but Crab Legs and my wife in lipstick lured me away<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n Bookman99R: such vices!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: lol<\/p>\n morganuci: lol!!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: I’m about tapped out, for originating, anyway<\/p>\n morganuci: OK, how about suggestions for a topic for next month?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: are we doing again on Saturday?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Always seemed to me the Joks Gods were merely a sufficiently advanced race<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Saturday is a HOLIDAY<\/p>\n Bookman99R: sure, advanced aliens<\/p>\n Bookman99R: hmmm<\/p>\n Bookman99R: RAH’s impact on the SF genre, perhaps?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: I am in MN, and that is the first weekend of November…..<\/p>\n morganuci: When we re-activated these talks, it seemed that almost no one ever showed up on Saturdays, so we went to the Thursday only format.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: oh, yes – the sacred Opening Day<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Wow, thought you had become a complete heathen down there in the South<\/p>\n morganuci: That’s a big topic—it should bring ’em in!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: have we done the Women of RAH recently?<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: *leer*<\/p>\n morganuci: I know I have<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: No, but I’d like to!<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: *rimshot*<\/p>\n Bookman99R: yeah, and a fiery one, especially if the emphasis is on feminism<\/p>\n morganuci: Shall we go with that then? Both are good topics.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: if we tossed a line out in alt.callahans, it could be a virtual free-for-all<\/p>\n Bookman99R: works for me<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN: Well, I am out of here, must grab some wood and build a fire. Good night all, let me know what you decide.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: g”night, amigo<\/p>\n NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.<\/p>\n morganuci: I vote for women first, impact second.<\/p>\n morganuci: David: Got the log (if you’re there)?<\/p>\n Bookman99R: maybe toss out Women as a prmary topic, and call for sub-topics?<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: I’ve got it.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: if we’re doing women, keep genre impacet on the back burner<\/p>\n morganuci: OK then, we’re agreed. Thanks everyone, and goodnight all!<\/p>\n Bookman99R: feminism, the relality of such, etc.<\/p>\n Bookman99R: good night!<\/p>\n morganuci has left the room.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Nite All!<\/p>\n Bookman99R has left the room.<\/p>\n DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 12:03 A.M. 11\/02\/07 Click Here to Return to Index<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Heinlein Readers Group Discussion Thursday 11\/01\/2007 9:00 P.M. EST Heinlein’s Aliens Click Here to Return to Index Here Begin The Postings From: Tim Morgan Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 03:48:23 -0000 Subject: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT [Editor’s Note: Re-scheduled for Nov.…
\nFrom: Tim Morgan
\nDate: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 03:48:23 -0000
\nSubject: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens<\/p>\n
\nWHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
\n[Editor’s Note: Re-scheduled for Nov. 1, 2007]
\nWHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
\nTOPIC: Heinlein’s Aliens<\/p>\n
\nfor The Heinlein Society
\nFrom: et…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black)
\nDate: 16 Oct 2007 04:21:57 GMT
\nSubject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens<\/p>\n
\n> HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
\n> WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
\n> WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
\n> TOPIC: Heinlein’s Aliens<\/p>\n
\n> case you’re wondering what that means, and it’s been holding you back
\n> from joining us, you can find all of this information at this
\n> location:<\/p>\n
\n> discussing a specific book and instead we’re looking at a cross-book
\n> topic, aliens in Heinlein. And by “aliens”, I mean sentient beings
\n> who interact with the humans, not life forms we’d normally classify as
\n> animals. I noted that in many of Heinlein’s books, there are few if
\n> any aliens, while in others, they’re very prominently featured or a
\n> central focus of the story. Why do you think that is? The division
\n> isn’t “juvenile” vs. “adult”. Which aliens are your favorites, or
\n> least favorites?<\/p>\n
\nFrom: “David Wright Sr.”
\nDate: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 12:14:52 +0000
\nSubject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens<\/p>\n
\n>> HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
\n>> WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
\n>> WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
\n>> TOPIC: Heinlein’s Aliens<\/p>\n
\nFrom: “jrc”
\nTo: “David Wright”
\nSent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7:04 AM
\nSubject: Re:<\/p>\n
\n> certain character types, and I think the same is true with some of his
\n> alien life forms<\/p>\n
\nand Stranger are the same.<\/p>\n
\nFrom: Chris Zakes
\nDate: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:29:22 -0500
\nSubject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens<\/p>\n
\n>> HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
\n>> WHEN: October 25, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
\n>> WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
\n>> TOPIC: Heinlein’s Aliens<\/p>\n
\n>> case you’re wondering what that means, and it’s been holding you back
\n>> from joining us, you can find all of this information at this
\n>> location:<\/p>\n
\n>> discussing a specific book and instead we’re looking at a cross-book
\n>> topic, aliens in Heinlein. And by “aliens”, I mean sentient beings
\n>> who interact with the humans, not life forms we’d normally classify as
\n>> animals. I noted that in many of Heinlein’s books, there are few if
\n>> any aliens, while in others, they’re very prominently featured or a
\n>> central focus of the story. Why do you think that is? The division
\n>> isn’t “juvenile” vs. “adult”. Which aliens are your favorites, or
\n>> least favorites?<\/p>\n
\n>If the story isn’t at a point in future history where alien life
\n>has been reached, one can hardly have aliens. Witness “Door Imto
\n>Summer”; the lack of aliens fits the story. Even a book like
\n>”Time for the Stars”, the lack of aliens isn’t shocking since even
\n>best estimates say life would hardly be common, the book itself
\n>even points out that it would be rare to find a planet of the
\n>right combination of things to sustain any life.<\/p>\n
\nTexas<\/p>\n
\nAnd says his prayers at night
\nMay become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms
\nAnd the autumn moon is bright.<\/p>\n
\nDate: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 07:07:43 -0800
\nSubject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens<\/p>\n
\n> any aliens, while in others, they’re very prominently featured or a
\n> central focus of the story. Why do you think that is?<\/p>\n
\nBy the way, while the Martians in RED PLANET and SiaSL seem to be the same; I’ve always had the notion that the Martians alluded to in PODKAYNE were a re-issue of those in DOUBLE STAR.<\/p>\n
\n> isn’t “juvenile” vs. “adult”. Which aliens are your favorites, or
\n> least favorites?Pos<\/p>\n
\nDitto-ditto the wormfaces in HSS-WT. They are, for me, perfect 1950s Bug-Eyed Monsters from their repulsive physical appearance to the dining on humans for a treat.<\/p>\n
\n> certain character types, and I think the same is true with some of his
\n> alien life forms. Willis and the Star Beast come to mind, for
\n> instance. Or a surprise in the other direction, there are the Jocks.
\n> Besides making an interesting story, what’s Heinlein trying to say
\n> here?<\/p>\n
\nThat Willis and Lummie both appear at times to be childish and demanding rather than mature and cooperative?
\nAre you surprised that in a juvenile story RAH included a juvenile alien?
\nHaven’t you ever watched Saturday morning television with your kids? Power Rangers in its various iterations has been running or at least 20 years.
\nFrom: Tim Morgan
\nDate: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 08:34:01 -0700
\nSubject: Re: HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING: Heinlein’s Aliens<\/p>\n
\nHere begins the Discussion<\/p>\n
\nEnd of Discussion<\/p>\n
Read more<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":205,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"ngg_post_thumbnail":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[45],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-2852","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-readersgroup"],"acf":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2852","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/205"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=2852"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2852\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":8986,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/2852\/revisions\/8986"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=2852"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=2852"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/heinleinsociety.org\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=2852"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}